[Rob Instigator]

the "gaps" are where they do RESEARCH

the "gaps" are where the questions lie.

we will never run out of "gaps" or questions, and that is BEAUTIFUL!!!!!

[Lurker]

I meant they accept the gaps in that they accept that there are gaps and things that still need to be solved even in a theory like evolution.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Lurker

I meant they accept the gaps in that they accept that there are gaps and things that still need to be solved even in a theory like evolution.

I was agreeing with ya!

[Lurker]

Oh right, I wasn't quite sure if you were or not so I thought I'll clarify what I meant.

If there weren't any gaps left what the hell would humanity do with itself?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

my two cents:

Science today thinks it is the Gospel of the past.

There are no absolutes, and scientists should not think so. The problem is that both sides of this debate believe they have access to the absolute truth, an the reality is that is simply absurd!

as i said, no one truly knows anything and everything about anything.

When talking about evolution and natural selection folks talk about millions and billions of years like they were there! News flash, fossils, DNA evidence and good ideas are not exactly a first-hand account...

and religious folks talk about Creation and God like they were there to witness it..

News flash, God is a mystery, and if you could possibly know everything or even anything about God, then He would not be God.

Science is not the Gospel, the Gospel is not a a science book, and neither of the two have any true proof that ALL of what they say is correct.

The middle ground is where to stand in this regard, building a consensus rather then a divide. Both parties need to come down from the mountain where they think they are divine..

science, you don't know shit, you were not there millions of years ago, how do you know all of your good ideas are actually correct?

religion, the whole point of religion is that you CANT know everything, then you'd be God instead of worshiping God.

[This Is Not Here]

 

[Lurker]

This thread reminds me of this I read recently:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5654566.ece

[This Is Not Here]

Beat this, God.

 

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i saw only a piece of that shit cuz i had to leave the house. there was this dumbfuck retired cop moron censoring science books on behalf of the school board. what a fucking dumbass fuck. retarded fucking moron. send him off to moron camp. who the fuck puts these turds in charge? on what authority? with what kind of qualifications? dumb, dumb, dumb fucking shitheads.

While I agree that this dude was dipshit, you must admit that his premise that the school should NOT teach Darwinian Evolution as if it were somehow an absolute and proven fact is DAMNED APPROPRIATE. Youth are impressionable and indifferent, if the teacher and the book says something, they will take it in passing as truth and move on. If the book says evolution is the all-pervasive truth, then the kids accept this, and that is not GOOD SCIENCE AT ALL, because it does not promote individual questioning of the facts..

I think that the science teachers SHOULD read statements like that dipshit from the school board had everyone read.. I don't agree with the book Of Pandas and People, nor of the sinister agendas of the ID lobbyists, BUT I also disagree with science folks thinking their absolute version is ok, but someone elses is a crock of shit..

there are no absolutes, and in A SCIENCE CLASSROOM, the truth should be ACCURATELY PRESENTED, and it should be ELABORATED that Darwinian Evolution and Natural Selection, while eloquent and logical and supported by evidence, ARE NOT ABSOLUTE FACT, and SHOULD NOT BE TAUGHT TO CHILDREN this way, as this is as much a misrepresentation of the realities and limits of science as much as Intelligent Design as promoted by the Right-wing agenda in this country is a pseudo-science..

When I was a kid, I just had to sit there and think this to myself when learning that evolution was absolute in biology or chemistry..

The teacher could have easily bridged this gap in introducing the lessons saying, "This is the THEORY of evolution, and while it is very well studied with much evidence, it remains a theory and is NOT necessarily the way the Universe was formed, but rather is a common belief accepted by many people today..."

That would solve ALL the problems if you ask me..

[akprodr]

Close to the stone age, when I was in junior high school, we were taught creationism. It took about 1 minute: "There are some people who believe that the creation happened exactly as described in the Bible." And then we went on to evolution.

Also, I think, in a manner of speaking, there are no gaps in evolution--just items that haven't been found or no longer exist.

Also, do evolution deniers have to worry about bacteria that become resistant to anti-biotics?

Also, I found it funny that my sister, who is a devote Catholic, didn't know that there are people that took the Bible literally--or at least that there were so fucking many of them.

Also, when exactly did the Bible become the literal TRUTH?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by akprodr

Also, I think, in a manner of speaking, there are no gaps in evolution--just items that haven't been found or no longer exist.

The bible was NEVER the literal or absolute truth, at least that is how the Orthodox Church takes it..

And yes, there are countless GAPS in the theory of evolution, fundamentally the theory has no proof that it actually happened that way at all.. after all, while I accept DNA evidence and the fossil record, this is by no means a smoking gun.. after all, who measures DNA? Scientists (ahem, can we said BIAS?)

and after all, how the fuck do we ACTUALLY know what fossils are, we are truly just accepting them as remains as much an act of faith as taking the Eucharist.

The reality is that human beings do no know shit, we are just really fabulous story tellers, and evolution is the great story we tell in this era, just as creation myths before them, and just like religion of old, we all believe these stories because they sound so nice when we tell them, but truthfully, nearly ALL of the evidences is circumstantial to the bias of the observers..

People today believe in evolution with as much passion and faith as the people of old believed Creation stories, but in the end, as much as NOBODY EVER WANTS TO ADMIT, this theory is as much a matter of belief and faith as ANY other story ever told about the Universe.. Evolution is merely the religion, the faith, of the modern era, but it can never be a proven fact, because of the limits of human understanding..

I do not accept ANY absolutes, these cause too much division.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

While I agree that this dude was dipshit, you must admit that his premise that the school should NOT teach Darwinian Evolution as if it were somehow an absolute and proven fact is DAMNED APPROPRIATE. Youth are impressionable and indifferent, if the teacher and the book says something, they will take it in passing as truth and move on. If the book says evolution is the all-pervasive truth, then the kids accept this, and that is not GOOD SCIENCE AT ALL, because it does not promote individual questioning of the facts..

I think that the science teachers SHOULD read statements like that dipshit from the school board had everyone read.. I don't agree with the book Of Pandas and People, nor of the sinister agendas of the ID lobbyists, BUT I also disagree with science folks thinking their absolute version is ok, but someone elses is a crock of shit..

there are no absolutes, and in A SCIENCE CLASSROOM, the truth should be ACCURATELY PRESENTED, and it should be ELABORATED that Darwinian Evolution and Natural Selection, while eloquent and logical and supported by evidence, ARE NOT ABSOLUTE FACT, and SHOULD NOT BE TAUGHT TO CHILDREN this way, as this is as much a misrepresentation of the realities and limits of science as much as Intelligent Design as promoted by the Right-wing agenda in this country is a pseudo-science..

When I was a kid, I just had to sit there and think this to myself when learning that evolution was absolute in biology or chemistry..

The teacher could have easily bridged this gap in introducing the lessons saying, "This is the THEORY of evolution, and while it is very well studied with much evidence, it remains a theory and is NOT necessarily the way the Universe was formed, but rather is a common belief accepted by many people today..."

That would solve ALL the problems if you ask me..

If you're saying that evolution shouldn't be taught in the classroom then really what you are saying is that no science should be taught because all science taught in the classroom is presented in the same way. In my experience no science teacher has ever told me that anything they have taught is absolute fact; all science is always a theory.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Lurker

If you're saying that evolution shouldn't be taught in the classroom then really what you are saying is that no science should be taught because all science taught in the classroom is presented in the same way. In my experience no science teacher has ever told me that anything they have taught is absolute fact; all science is always a theory.

I didn't say evolution should not be taught in the classroom..

I said that the Darwinian theory of Evolution, (ie, the process of natural selection, that the origin of all things is a result of this process) should not be taught as an absolute fact, when it is no fact at all, but rather a great great theory which I also accept, but not as an absolute fact, because I could never ACTUALLY know about evolution the way I can know about other principles of science which I can observe and experience directly. I can put light through a prism and KNOW for a FACT that in white light is all the colors of the rainbow, but how could I ever know that I evolved from sulfur bacteria at the bottom of the ocean 3.5 billion years ago?

Good science asks questions, and the way evolution is presented today in biology books DOES not encourage questioning..

today science folks get as defensive about evolution as religious folks get about the Bible, it is fucking ridiculous..

[✌➬]

Originally Posted by Lurker

If you're saying that evolution shouldn't be taught in the classroom then really what you are saying is that no science should be taught because all science taught in the classroom is presented in the same way. In my experience no science teacher has ever told me that anything they have taught is absolute fact; all science is always a theory.

Same here, not every teacher, or prof I had has said that it was absolute truth.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

While I agree that this dude was dipshit, you must admit that his premise that the school should NOT teach Darwinian Evolution as if it were somehow an absolute and proven fact is DAMNED APPROPRIATE. Youth are impressionable and indifferent, if the teacher and the book says something, they will take it in passing as truth and move on. If the book says evolution is the all-pervasive truth, then the kids accept this, and that is not GOOD SCIENCE AT ALL, because it does not promote individual questioning of the facts..

i'm going to stop right there and answer to this before anything else and say BOLLOCKS.

the dumb book-burning cop's premise is utterly wrong because it simply doesn't apply to the teaching of science. if he wants to teach in bible school that science is wrong or made a mistake about evolution because the word of god says differently, by all means he is free to do it (though he'd be the worst kind of dumbass incompetent theologian by doing that). but he needs to keep his filthy paws off the science curriculum. he doesn't know or understand science. science teachers don't go to sunday school to say that the bible is bullshit and that science proves it. keep science and religion separate. they are different endeavors.

your statement that science does not promote individual questioning of the facts is either blatantly or willfully ignorant-- science is based on questioning ane experimentation, and it revises its truths constantly-- that's the essence of science. those who confuse science with a secular gospel either do not understand science at all or never had the luck to receive a proper education.

i'll check the rest of your post a little later cuz i don't have time to answer the rest right now.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

The bible was NEVER the literal or absolute truth, at least that is how the Orthodox Church takes it..

And yes, there are countless GAPS in the theory of evolution, fundamentally the theory has no proof that it actually happened that way at all.. after all, while I accept DNA evidence and the fossil record, this is by no means a smoking gun.. after all, who measures DNA? Scientists (ahem, can we said BIAS?)

No proof?!! There's fucking loads of evidence! You're confused, there is no ideology in science, there is just the search for truth, and that way individual scientists may have biases but not all scientists in the way people of a perticular religion would. Who else is going to "measure DNA" (whatever you mean by that, I don't understand it) apart form scientists? Would you rather we had some priests with no scientific training to do a share of scientific research just to make things less biased? And anyway there are plenty of scientists who are religious.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

and after all, how the fuck do we ACTUALLY know what fossils are, we are truly just accepting them as remains as much an act of faith as taking the Eucharist.

The reality is that human beings do no know shit, we are just really fabulous story tellers, and evolution is the great story we tell in this era, just as creation myths before them, and just like religion of old, we all believe these stories because they sound so nice when we tell them, but truthfully, nearly ALL of the evidences is circumstantial to the bias of the observers..

I do not accept ANY absolutes, these cause too much division.

What you call the evolution "myth" is not a myth in any way. It does not serve the purpose that myths or religions do. It's not a form of entertainment, it has not morality, it is not comforting etc.

[akprodr]

What are you talking about? As I mentioned, evolution happens all the time--inside our own bodies for crying out loud! Bacteria evolve and become resistant to anti-biotics. There really is no difference between bacteria and people--we share a lot of the same DNA

[akprodr]

And, to answer the q in the subject: no, apparently we can not get along.

(we haven't evolved that far)

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

your statement that science does not promote individual questioning of the facts is either blatantly or willfully ignorant-- science is based on questioning ane experimentation, and it revises its truths constantly-- that's the essence of science. those who confuse science with a secular gospel either do not understand science at all or never had the luck to receive a proper education.

.

I said that current science EDUCATION in public schools does not necessarily promote individual question in regards to the theory of evolution, not that science does not promote questioning.

My whole beef is that science DOES promote questioning, and so that mainstream science education should ALSO promote this questioning, but it is clear from any 9th grade biology text book that this is not the case, them say the Darwinian Evolution and Natural Selection IS how the universe came to be, not that is is a POSSIBILITY.
Kids need to know that not everything the book or adults say is true, and science of all subjects is supposed to be the subject which encourages this, but that is not the reality of many science classrooms today..

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I didn't say evolution should not be taught in the classroom..

I said that the Darwinian theory of Evolution, (ie, the process of natural selection, that the origin of all things is a result of this process) should not be taught as an absolute fact, when it is no fact at all, but rather a great great theory which I also accept, but not as an absolute fact, because I could never ACTUALLY know about evolution the way I can know about other principles of science which I can observe and experience directly. I can put light through a prism and KNOW for a FACT that in white light is all the colors of the rainbow, but how could I ever know that I evolved from sulfur bacteria at the bottom of the ocean 3.5 billion years ago?

Good science asks questions, and the way evolution is presented today in biology books DOES not encourage questioning..

today science folks get as defensive about evolution as religious folks get about the Bible, it is fucking ridiculous..

IT IS NOT TAUGHT AS ABSOLUTE FACT! STOP LYING! With the prism how do you know that actually some other phenomena is happening? Maybe instead of splitting the light it is actually changing the colour of the light and the angle that the light goes through the prism decides this? I'm not actually doubting that the light is split but I am demonstrating your hypocrisy and willful ignorance.