[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Wasn't the Ottoman Empire a Muslim one?


at least the Ottoman empire welcomed science and learning and knowledge and collected and protected the knowledge for westerners to catch up on later.

when the christians take over they tend to see all knowledge that does not come from the bible as evil and worthy of being burned, destroyed, forgotten.

This is true in many cases, and is the very reason why many are confused into thinking this nation was founded by Christians, on Christian principals. It's sad. Things are getting better in some cases, but there are still those that believe totally absurd bullshit like "if there is extra-terrestrial life, it must be of Satan because the Bible doesn't mention it", not to mention totally bypassing facts such as evolution that have been scientifically proven. You'll have some preacher say something completely ill-thought like "haha, I didn't come from no monkey", which just goes to show how much they have actually studied on the topic. All of this said, I find most atheist (sadly...) kinda do the same thing when discussing the Bible. Basically, it's clear they haven't read it and sometimes make outrageous claims based on things they've heard, as opposed to have actually researched/read. Which brings me to the topic of this thread.....

As far as this Terry Jones thing, he seems to feel as if these books should be burned because of a religion that he thinks supports violence. I just wish he'd consider all of the violence that has spawned as a result of Christianity. "Ask a Native American about Christian love" and all that jazz. There has, beyond any shadow of a doubt, been more bloodshed as a result of Christianity than perhaps all other religions put together. Some shit like 9/11 happens, we are still talking about it nearly 10 years later as if it was yesterday. I DO think it's an event that should be remembered, but finger pointing and blaming (still....) this far in the game is insane. What about radical christians and the shit they have been responsible for? What if I were to judge every Christian out there based on the actions of Tim Mcveigh or Christopher Columbus? Totally not fair.

People interpret the text of the Bible very differently, and respond to it as such. People read what they want to read. Christians often disregard the Old Testament (an extremely violent group of books) as not meaning much because of Jesus...when in all actuality, Jesus came in SUPPORT of the Old Testament, even if perhaps adding a little common sense to it (i.e. it being OK to work on the Sabbath if necessary).

From what I gather about the Koran, (and I am by no means an expert on it) is that their version of the Old Testament was mostly peaceful, the new one got violent. Polar opposite of what we see in the Christian version of the Bible (Christian New Testament is wildly violent as well...Jesus was not a hippy, sorry...just not as violent as the Old Testament).

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by SONIC GAIL

that hypocrisy is usually what turns people off when it comes to god. now that we are allowed to think for ourselves we usually don't want to get mixed up in some group that does not live by what they speak. It really irritates me as a christian because I respect ALL religions. God made everyone different so why would he not communicate with them in different ways? And those that do not believe in god usually follow the same morals as those that do and I do think that they should be respected equally. Its about giving to others and being a good person not fighting about who is right and wrong. If yopu believe in god then you believe he wants evryone here not just you.

I am an Atheist. However, I do believe that if there was a God (one actually aware of his own and our individual existences) that he would think along these lines. He gave us brains for a reason and understands we're all different and communicates w/ us in different ways...yep. I mean, I DON'T believe that because I don't believe in God but if he did exist in the way some people speak about him...then yes, I can dig that train of thought.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by gualbert

USA is a very religious country AND also the most advanced in science and technology.

but the USA is strictly and specifically a SECULAR nation, not a religions/christian nation, regardless of what the pundits in the Tea Party and Fox News would have you think,

[ann ashtray]

Rob just got repped.

[Rob Instigator]

when the Roman Catholic vatican ran most of Europe the killing, raping, and destruction of knowledge and books and codexes from south america, and the burning of Ottoman libraries universities etc was unprecedented,

[hevusa]

Originally Posted by SONIC GAIL

i have the same god they do we just call him somethin different

Oh, so you are both lying.

[ann ashtray]

But the thing about Proverbs...yes, lot's of great wisdom to be shared from that book. But the Bible is a book made up of many different books written by people that mostly didn't even know each other. Still surprises me how many people think it's in chronological order as written. Job is actually the oldest book of the Bible....I can't help but to question a peace/loving God considering the way Job was tested.

Not to mention it was required of Abraham to KILL his son as a test of his faith. Thankfully God told him not to go through with it toward the end.

Prostitutes being stoned.

And a son of God forced to die and suffer for our sins. It's endless....

No wonder @ all the violence. I can see how it would make sense to some. Sad, but true.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

This is true in many cases, and is the very reason why many are confused into thinking this nation was founded by Christians, on Christian principals. It's sad. Things are getting better in some cases, but there are still those that believe totally absurd bullshit like "if there is extra-terrestrial life, it must be of Satan because the Bible doesn't mention it", not to mention totally bypassing facts such as evolution that have been scientifically proven. You'll have some preacher say something completely ill-thought like "haha, I didn't come from no monkey", which just goes to show how much they have actually studied on the topic. All of this said, I find most atheist (sadly...) kinda do the same thing when discussing the Bible. Basically, it's clear they haven't read it and sometimes make outrageous claims based on things they've heard, as opposed to have actually researched/read. Which brings me to the topic of this thread.....

As far as this Terry Jones thing, he seems to feel as if these books should be burned because of a religion that he thinks supports violence. I just wish he'd consider all of the violence that has spawned as a result of Christianity. "Ask a Native American about Christian love" and all that jazz. There has, beyond any shadow of a doubt, been more bloodshed as a result of Christianity than perhaps all other religions put together. Some shit like 9/11 happens, we are still talking about it nearly 10 years later as if it was yesterday. I DO think it's an event that should be remembered, but finger pointing and blaming (still....) this far in the game is insane. What about radical christians and the shit they have been responsible for? What if I were to judge every Christian out there based on the actions of Tim Mcveigh or Christopher Columbus? Totally not fair.

People interpret the text of the Bible very differently, and respond to it as such. People read what they want to read. Christians often disregard the Old Testament (an extremely violent group of books) as not meaning much because of Jesus...when in all actuality, Jesus came in SUPPORT of the Old Testament, even if perhaps adding a little common sense to it (i.e. it being OK to work on the Sabbath if necessary).

From what I gather about the Koran, (and I am by no means an expert on it) is that their version of the Old Testament was mostly peaceful, the new one got violent. Polar opposite of what we see in the Christian version of the Bible (Christian New Testament is wildly violent as well...Jesus was not a hippy, sorry...just not as violent as the Old Testament).

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ann ashtray again.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by hevusa

Oh, so you are both lying.

oh fuck off again im about to go home

[Rob Instigator]

the thing is, if there is violence in religious texts, it is there as a reflection and aresult of the violence in the human existance.

life is a violent endeavor. HUmans can see this in a way other animals seem to not. This causes us to question the existance of the violence and pain and suffering, instead of just accepting it as part of the natural order of things. all death is life, all life is death. all destruction is construction. all constrution is destruction.

[ann ashtray]

And to that, Rob, I say amen.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

But the thing about Proverbs...yes, lot's of great wisdom to be shared from that book. But the Bible is a book made up of many different books written by people that mostly didn't even know each other. Still surprises me how many people think it's in chronological order as written. Job is actually the oldest book of the Bible....I can't help but to question a peace/loving God considering the way Job was tested.

Not to mention it was required of Abraham to KILL his son as a test of his faith. Thankfully God told him not to go through with it toward the end.

Prostitutes being stoned.

And a son of God forced to die and suffer for our sins. It's endless....

No wonder @ all the violence. I can see how it would make sense to some. Sad, but true.

yin an yang baby
I will reinterate that this is JUST WHAT I BELIEVE so as not to get into another 3 page bible scuffle, but
god knows what you are going to do before you do it but you still have the right to choose what you do. Almost everything in the bible contradicts itself. It makes no fuckin sense!!!!!!! so i just believe and talk to him like he walks around with me everywhere i go and do unto others like i want to be treated. i have seen no miracles but I KNOW he listens cause he has answered some really deep shit in my life more than once.


humans are not forced to love god we have to choose to thus we fall get up make a big mess of shit get up again and go back to him. at least thats what i did. i was not always so faithfull i went through my questioning period hurt myself hurt others and came back and even though i know i once denied him he will never deny me.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

the thing is, if there is violence in religious texts, it is there as a reflection and aresult of the violence in the human existance.

life is a violent endeavor. HUmans can see this in a way other animals seem to not. This causes us to question the existance of the violence and pain and suffering, instead of just accepting it as part of the natural order of things. all death is life, all life is death. all destruction is construction. all constrution is destruction.

YES that is the truest statement I have read in a long time.....too bad i cant rep you today!!!!

[Dr. Eugene Felikson]

In my early teens, I burnt a pocket-sized bible and neutralized the flames with my piss - just to show the God I didn't believe in, just how tough I was.

[SONIC GAIL]

Well I used to roll joints with the new testament. I inhaled the word of god

[ann ashtray]

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[SONIC GAIL]

Hey its better than tampon wrappers

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SONIC GAIL

YES that is the truest statement I have read in a long time.....too bad i cant rep you today!!!!

just rape me tomorrow.

[SONIC GAIL]

You'd like that but too bad renember my bathroom beating man

[Keeping It Simple]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Wasn't the Ottoman Empire a Muslim one?


at least the Ottoman empire welcomed science and learning and knowledge and collected and protected the knowledge for westerners to catch up on later.

when the christians take over they tend to see all knowledge that does not come from the bible as evil and worthy of being burned, destroyed, forgotten.

I agree with you on that. Take the Crusades. When the Chrisitian army captured Jerusalem it massacred the Muslim population. It even turned on the Jews, burning the synagogues they took refuge in.