[knox]

Originally Posted by foreverasskiss

i'll never know what was wrong with this post and why knox took it the wrong way.

I'll explain it to you because maybe you would care:

- Women don't go out to libraries to have cunts staring at them and talking about them on the internet.

- What was even more worrying was the actual lamenting as to why he couldn't take photos of people who would be unaware of it and post them so that they could be unwillingly objectified on the internet without their consent.

- There are women on this board (not many now, and you can see why) who deserve to be respected and feel like this is a welcoming place for them. I can only think of 2 or 3 female posters now (including me) among all the posters here.

Sure you would say there aren't many people posting now, but how many of them are male vs. female? How many women have posted here and or simply lurk? I know because I remember getting a lot of messages about this.

Even if one of them wanted to complain about anything, they wouldn't because they've seen the way I've been treated for doing so.

And that's what I've been told by quite a few of them.

- People don't appreciate having their ethnicity and background talked about as a commodity for other people's erotic pleasure. They are human beings, individuals and their ethnicity is not a brand. Indian women, for instance, already take enough shit to have to deal with western people fetichizing their features.

I can't be any clearer than that.

[knox]

Originally Posted by foreverasskiss

i doubt Rob was foaming at the mouth and staring down these woman to the point of disgust.

as far as taking photos and filming such women....i think he was exaggerating and trying to express how much he thought they were fine.

not a goddamn thing wrong with that.

i have to admit, fine hotties in libraries are a turn-on.

It should matter to people if other people tell them something that they're doing makes them feel uncomfortable. It should matter to them that many girls don't feel welcome here. It should call for some self-assessment if some people are acting like this is their space, not a space they share with people, people from all around the world, including women of certain ethnicities or nationalities that may find it very offensive.

I don't think he was "exaggerating", he said he wouldn't do that because it wasn't permitted but expressed his willingness to do so.

We don't get to decide what other people may find offensive or uncomfortable.

You're creating a male-dominated environment in which very few people raised their voices against a bunch of males ganging up against a woman from simply raising her voice against something she doesn't find ok.

And when that doesn't work to silence me, the attacks on my character begin. This is the classist strategy of the privileged.

That is worrying, especially because it's a representation of how things are in the real world.

I'm not asking people to change their entire lives, but to have some respect for me and other girls who are or may want to be posting here.

I don't think I have to remind you that SY is very popular among girls because of Kim Gordon's lyrics about women issues.

The strategy works because any girl reading this will be afraid of being treated the same way as I have.

If they want to act like that, like they own the space and it doesn't matter what anybody feels, if it's not important for them to listen, I can only say it's really sad and it makes me worry about women in their "real" lives.

[knox]

On the other hand, you're probably right that Rob didn't mean anything much by it, because it's no big deal in his opinion. However, intent is not may or may not offend people, as we don't always realize how deeply embedded our prejudices are. If somebody calls it, chances are they're probably right. The only nice way to do it is to try and respect people's feelings, not to use your already-privileged position to try and make them shut up so you can carry on without reconsidering anything.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by knox

On the other hand, you're probably right that Rob didn't mean anything much by it, because it's no big deal in his opinion.

This is the big thing with the situation - if someone had said, in an off-hand way, that black people were stupid, they'd be shouted down without hesitation. Or it'd be taken as a sort of Internet ironic thing. When it comes to sexism, not only is it entirely normal, the interrogation of same is seen as abnormal. Many calls to 'chill'. Lots of people saying knox 'misinterpreted' the first and subsequent posts. Nothing was misinterpreted - knox is interrogating bizarre and unpleasant behaviour and getting shouted down because that behaviour is entirely 'normal'.

She's also being much more chilled than I think a lot of you realise. My partner was utterly livid when she read this thread.

[!@#$%!]

for the record knox (if you read this i don't know), i am not against you criticizing the objectification and stereotyping of people based on gender, nationality, etc. i actually was protesting a stupid racist joke here the other day. i'm not saying this to justify that i'm some sort of saint, i'm just saying it so that the direction of my attacks against you isn't conflated with attacks against your general cause.

i'm just clarifying here because you seem to think (or imply) that i'm against fairness, that i'm for the male supremacy. i'm not. i'm against the tyranny of self-appointed ayatollahs, but that's another story.

while i didn't find rob's initial post appealing, the one that came across as creepy (to me anyway) was bytor's request for photos.

now the thing is-- i actually support discussing and questioning those things. i was actually going to chime in, in my own fashion, but then when i looked again things had gone elsewhere.

where i come in to fight you is in your approach that accomplishes nothing but alienate people.

yes, you may feel morally superior implying that rob is an enabler of rape, you may feel like a martyr because nobody listens to you, but really, if your goal is social change, insulting people for crimes they didn't commit will not achieve that. the very act of being put on trial will cause them to "not listen" as you complain. people will default to the defensive stance.

now, ironically enough, that's the very same approach i take towards you, namely, i call you stupid and insane while i try to convince you to be smarter and saner-- and obviously it backfires. so i'm not practicing what i'm preaching. the difference though is that i'm not trying to educate like you say you do-- i'm just fighting.

the only reason i'm fighting you on this is because you come into the thread swinging a battleaxe in all directions, screaming bloody murder, and i look and say "hey, is this a private fight, or can anyone join?".

but just so you know, i'll repeat-- i'm not fighting for sexism and objectification, i'm just fighting against pigheadedness, unfocused rage, overreaching accusations, poor arguments, and silliness such as "stop doing what you do because i say so." there are better arguments against sexism and objectification than "because i say so, you filthy man."

why i fight, you might ask? because i like to fight, and you're offering the occasion. and i suspect the same is whith everyone who isn't "listening" to you-- they are trying, but you keep calling them names instead. smooth move!

[knox]

Originally Posted by Glice

This is the big thing with the situation - if someone had said, in an off-hand way, that black people were stupid, they'd be shouted down without hesitation. Or it'd be taken as a sort of Internet ironic thing. When it comes to sexism, not only is it entirely normal, the interrogation of same is seen as abnormal. Many calls to 'chill'. Lots of people saying knox 'misinterpreted' the first and subsequent posts. Nothing was misinterpreted - knox is interrogating bizarre and unpleasant behaviour and getting shouted down because that behaviour is entirely 'normal'.

She's also being much more chilled than I think a lot of you realise. My partner was utterly livid when she read this thread.

That's a recurring thought I have, imagine this scenario with race and you would have an army of outraged people. But because sexism is totally naturalized, they are not even embarassed of what they've been doing.

But I won't even expect anybody to quote or reply to you. Despite the fact there has been some arrogant attempts to pretend this was actually an intellectual debate, none of that was genuine. It quickly descends to name calling and just blatant assholism.

The behaviour here makes me actually worry about real life.

 

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

That's a recurring thought I have, imagine this scenario with race and you would have an army of outraged people

http://sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthr...6857&page=1863

i didn't pursue self-proclaimed feminist floatingslowly for saying that girl was "a man" because everything is a joke to him anyway

[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

for the record knox (if you read this i don't know), i am not against you criticizing the objectification and stereotyping of people based on gender, nationality, etc. i actually was protesting a stupid racist joke here the other day. i'm not saying this to justify that i'm some sort of saint, i'm just saying it so that the direction of my attacks against you isn't conflated with attacks against your general cause.

i'm just clarifying here because you seem to think (or imply) that i'm against fairness, that i'm for the male supremacy. i'm not. i'm against the tyranny of self-appointed ayatollahs, but that's another story.

while i didn't find rob's initial post appealing, the one that came across as creepy (to me anyway) was bytor's request for photos.

now the thing is-- i actually support discussing and questioning those things. i was actually going to chime in, in my own fashion, but then when i looked again things had gone elsewhere.

where i come in to fight you is in your approach that accomplishes nothing but alienate people.

yes, you may feel morally superior implying that rob is an enabler of rape, you may feel like a martyr because nobody listens to you, but really, if your goal is social change, insulting people for crimes they didn't commit will not achieve that. the very act of being put on trial will cause them to "not listen" as you complain. people will default to the defensive stance.

now, ironically enough, that's the very same approach i take towards you, namely, i call you stupid and insane while i try to convince you to be smarter and saner-- and obviously it backfires. so i'm not practicing what i'm preaching. the difference though is that i'm not trying to educate like you say you do-- i'm just fighting.

the only reason i'm fighting you on this is because you come into the thread swinging a battleaxe in all directions, screaming bloody murder, and i look and say "hey, is this a private fight, or can anyone join?".

but just so you know, i'll repeat-- i'm not fighting for sexism and objectification, i'm just fighting against pigheadedness, unfocused rage, overreaching accusations, poor arguments, and silliness such as "stop doing what you do because i say so." there are better arguments against sexism and objectification than "because i say so, you filthy man."

why i fight, you might ask? because i like to fight, and you're offering the occasion. and i suspect the same is whith everyone who isn't "listening" to you-- they are trying, but you keep calling them names instead. smooth move!

Honestly, honestly, honestly.
You get told off by some men who shame you for being a total cunt and you change your tone completely.
That's because you are a coward.
You are a coward and the way you've treated me more than once makes me actually worry about the women in your life, because you seem to think it's ok to use exaggerated aggresion and verbal abuse against a woman, and you have no problem rubbing your privilege on someone for your own selfish purposes.
You can't turn back now because that side of you has been clearly exposed.
I don't even expect you to truly be ashamed of yourself, you're just being political because now other man are watching.
That's classic behaviour and it's the behaviour of a coward.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

Honestly, honestly, honestly.
You get told off by some men who shame you for being a total cunt and you change your tone completely.
That's because you are a coward.
You are a coward and the way you've treated me more than once makes me actually worry about the women in your life, because you seem to think it's ok to use exaggerated aggresion and verbal abuse against a woman, and you have no problem rubbing your privilege on someone for your own selfish purposes.
You can't turn back now because that side of you has been clearly exposed.
I don't even expect you to truly be ashamed of yourself, you're just being political because now other man are watching.
That's classic behaviour and it's the behaviour of a coward.

see, that's exactly what i'm talking about, haa haaa haa. you're proving my point.

the unfocused rage, the questioning of motives, the overreaching accusations-- that's the stuff of madness, stupidity, and rotgut drink.

i'll keep it going, if you're game.

do you need a coffee?

[keep poppin pimples]

i think i miss laila. she was cool but a girl and muslim so nobody was very nice

[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

http://sonicyouth.com/gossip/showthr...6857&page=1863

i didn't pursue self-proclaimed feminist floatingslowly for saying that girl was "a man" because everything is a joke to him anyway

Wow. Now we're trying to avoid judgement by trying to throw someone under the bus. A whole new low.

Unfortunately for you, floatingslowly is lovely and reacts very well to criticism, and has shown his opinions here.

I've never seen him persecuting a woman in a rude, aggressive and insulting way. If he ever does, I'll be sure to tell him off.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

Wow. Now we're trying to avoid judgement by trying to throw someone under the bus. A whole new low.

Unfortunately for you, floatingslowly is lovely and reacts very well to criticism, and has shown his opinions here.

I've never seen him persecuting a woman in a rude, aggressive and insulting way. If he ever does, I'll be sure to tell him off.

im not throwing anyone under a bus, you're just a coward afraid to lose a supporter when you're about to lose completely

yes, coward, i said coward.

only brave when drunk.

[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

see, that's exactly what i'm talking about, haa haaa haa. you're proving my point.

the unfocused rage, the questioning of motives, the unfounded accusations-- the stuff of madness, stupidity, and rotgut drink.

i'll keep it going, if you're game.

do you need a coffee?

You have directed sexist insults and attacks towards me before.
You have been blacklisted because I take these things very seriously.
Don't even try to play this game in which you continue to attack my character about things you don't even know. Nobody is going to fall for it, it's not funny and it's making you look worse.
You started this because I once told you I was drunk. So we all get that you're sexist enough to think women shouldn't drink, so let's move on.
I'm not especulating about what you do for fun, because that doesn't define your character.
I'm commenting on the attitude you've been displaying here, once again.
And it's the attitude of a coward.

[keep poppin pimples]

there's a lot of women i really don't like but i wouldn't get much out of calling them a drunk or coward more than a hundred times. like 5 times is already pretty excessive

[knox]

Originally Posted by keep poppin pimples

there's a lot of women i really don't like but i wouldn't get much out of calling them a drunk or coward more than a hundred times. like 5 times is already pretty excessive

When a man has no problem directly name calling and being excessively aggresive towards a woman, that's a big red flag.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

You have directed sexist insults and attacks towards me before.

since to you everything is sexist, i suppose i have

Originally Posted by knox

You have been blacklisted because I take these things very seriously.

blacklisted? that's racist!

Originally Posted by knox

Don't even try to play this game in which you continue to attack my character about things you don't even know.

why not? you attack the character of everyone who disagrees with you. do you have the monopoly on this?

Originally Posted by knox

Nobody is going to fall for it, it's not funny and it's making you look worse.

i don't know, i think it's pretty evident that you're part-deranged

Originally Posted by knox

You started this because I once told you I was drunk.

i started this because the reason i mentioned above

Originally Posted by knox

So we all get that you're sexist enough to think women shouldn't drink, so let's move on.

lololololol.

i think people who react poorly to drink should drink. i had a male highschool friend who would get into fights every time he drank. so i stopped drinking with him. angry drunks are awful.

Originally Posted by knox

I'm not especulating about what you do for fun, because that doesn't define your character.

you just speculated that i think women shouldn't drink, which is hilarious

Originally Posted by knox

I'm commenting on the attitude you've been displaying here, once again.
And it's the attitude of a coward.

why is it cowardly to argue unfairly with someone who is using unfair arguments? i don't get it. do you get a special dispensation to be an asshole? i hope you don't think being a woman gives you the right to be an asshole, because that would be sexist, and a lie.

[knox]

Originally Posted by keep poppin pimples

i think i miss laila. she was cool but a girl and muslim so nobody was very nice

I don't remember her... I do remember some nice girls here.

[Genteel Death]

While she made some good points, some of which have been brought up on this forum more than twice previously, and certainly I have discussed and agreed on with other women in my life many times in the past, including my sisters, I still find knox insufferably patronising when she brings them forward to her internet audience. For instance, it made me chuckle that she even tried to suggest on this thread that I have an insensitive attitude towards gay-bashing (if I read that correctly). That's not the first time she ridiculously suggested I am insensitive to gender issues either. I'm all for being aggressive on subjects such as these, but if you end up alienating potential recruits to your cause, or worse still, you push away people already converted from engaging in any discussion with you because of your attitude, thus making them discuss those issues with people they'll find more engaging, surely it shouldn't come as a surprise if you are met with an indifferent or antagonist attitude from your regular bunch of idiotic rape-apologists and all-male internet acrobats, who will obviously enter the discussion with a well-worded reply to cover their tracks.

[the ikara cult]

...

[keep poppin pimples]

she's not patronising you.

it's called matronising. lol