06.26.2015, 04:12 PM | #46941 | ||
invito al cielo
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,798
|
Quote:
I know what you meant. I'm sorry if my response somehow confused things, or if I gave the wrong impression. I didn't think you were saying that a specific melody needed to be followed, because with "Cool Jazz", that's not the case at all, and you clearly know enough to know that. Without getting too wrapped up in technical concepts, or bringing fugue and polytonality into the discussion, I think we both understand how melody is used in Modal Jazz as compared to, say, "big band." When I think of cool jazz, or try to explain what it is, I usually refer to songs that exemplify the style. Songs like "So What", (which is an example of the point you're making about melody) and "My Favorite Things", which is a perfect example of what I'm saying about standards and traditional numbers being a major part of this era of jazz. In cool jazz period, modal renditions of melodies from "pop" standards were often used as unifying themes and launching points for modal compositions. Coltrane's quartet wasn't covering "My Favorite Things", or even playing through the song's set chord progressions. The band played within the larger parameters of the parent mode of the song, rather than the notes and chords of the original, giving the vamping and comping players more to do, and allowed for simultaneous improvisation. This gave the song a much broader range, and allowed the soloists to venture far beyond the tonal limits that would be imposed on a Big Band. In essence it was a new piece of music almost entirely. The familiar melody from the Sound of Music would pop up and slink in and out of focus, and that's what I mean when I stress the importance of melody in Cool Jazz. Original or rendition, the melodic component allows the piece to resolve, or take a breather, . It's easy to confuse these with "covers" but they're not.. for many reasons, but particularly because the musicians were not comping on the set chord progression of the original song, but were, instead, extending into the parent mode. So, the song would start with a familiar melody, and then splinter off into different keys, creating what amounts to a completely new song. In bebop, and in big band, the melody was repeated a great deal more, but my gods was it boring for those poor bastards backing up whoever had the solo. Quote:
1. I've always liked Phish because I can hear jazz in their music. The lyrics may be idiotic, but some of their songs would fit a scholar's definition of jazz. They're amazing players. 2. Yes! Ornette's (RIP) free jazz was like a deconstruction of a deconstruction. like Cool Jazz changing from Bruce Banner to the Hulk. --- And all I was saying about improvisation was that not all sub-genres of jazz used improvisation as fundamentally as cool jazz and free jazz did. Improvisation is not necessarily a stylistic requirement of making jazz music. I'm just not particularly interested in any form of jazz that doesn't include it. |
||
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 04:18 PM | #46942 | |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,798
|
Quote:
A high school jazz band. |
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 04:35 PM | #46943 |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: In the land of the Instigator
Posts: 27,991
|
I dig it Severian. It is awesome to time travel musically between the very early Louis Armstrong music, to Lester Young to Ellington to Parker to Miles to Brubeck to Coltrane to Coleman to Kirk.....
__________________
RXTT's Intellectual Journey - my new blog where I talk about all the books I read. |
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 05:14 PM | #46944 | |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,879
|
Quote:
When did the dotted eighth notes become a staple of the genre? That's sort of my sticking point with "non-traditional" jazz. I need to hear the swing. But it didn't always have that? |
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 05:21 PM | #46945 | |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mars attacks
Posts: 42,648
|
Quote:
haaa haa haaa okay, but it's still jazz then? |
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 05:59 PM | #46946 |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mars attacks
Posts: 42,648
|
anyway, iistening again & again to
LIGHTNING BOLT - FANTASY EMPIRE (2O15) great & great & great & great & great how can just 2 people create this much complexity? insane. i fucking love it. |
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 06:01 PM | #46947 |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 11,798
|
I was once the object of what can only be described as an "intervention", in which four or five of my "math rock" enthusiast friends tried to convince me that Yes was the greatest math rock band in the history of the world.
I laughed at first, thinking it was a joke, and seriously a couple of them looked at me like I'd just defended Hitler. I don't think they ever got over that. I really tried to listen fairly because these were my friends, but it just felt ridiculous. Aside from their hits, I've only listened to them a couple of times. It didn't click. Last time was years ago, so I'm thinking I should consider giving it another go. |
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 06:19 PM | #46948 | |
invito al cielo
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mars attacks
Posts: 42,648
|
Quote:
your friends' appreciation showed good taste but the definition was wrong-- yes is not math rock, math rock is a weak-sauce derivative of prog rock. okay, it's a cleaned-up version, cooler and more intellectual. but it's definitely derivative whereas the ancients were the ones who broke the ground. as for the ridiculousness, it's definitely there, and in many places. but it's a band with such a long history and personnel changes it's really not one band at all-- at some point there were 2 yes bands if i'm correct, and they had to had to recombine, probably for legal reasons, into one again-- from which their "union" record came out. but that's the 90s and i don't care about that. so i can't know what you heard or what it sounded like. for me it's back to the 70s where the good stuff happened. just like late-80s sonic youth, in a way. speaking of 70s and 90s-- i'm almost sure modest mouse uses the opening of "survival" in one of their songs, i just can't pinpoint which one is it. "survival" is one of the best tracks of yes's first album ('yes"). please do not confuse "yes" with "the yes album"-- they're 2 different ones ha ha ha ha. but "yes" is from 1969. so. hm. er. don't laugh at them again or vincent gallo will hex your colon. he's a huuuuuuuuuge fan. and he's been known to hex colons. |
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 06:30 PM | #46949 |
Super Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Stowmarket
Posts: 13,505
|
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.26.2015, 08:51 PM | #46950 |
stalker
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 379
|
the only time I enjoyed Yes was the edit version of Roundabout on the radio and in Buffalo 66. otherwise crap.
King Crimson guy here. math rock has NOTHING to do with prog. |
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 03:34 AM | #46951 | |
expwy. to yr skull
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,019
|
Quote:
|
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 03:40 AM | #46952 | |
expwy. to yr skull
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,019
|
Quote:
|
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 04:59 AM | #46953 | |
expwy. to yr skull
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,019
|
Quote:
|
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 07:27 AM | #46954 |
invito al cielo
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Oxford, England
Posts: 15,225
|
I can't stand progressive rock from the 70s. I couldn't stand it then, can't now. I have a few Jethro Tull albums, and they are more bearable, slightly. Whitest white boy music ever made.
__________________
Ever notice how this place just basically, well, sucks. |
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 08:30 AM | #46955 | |||
invito al cielo
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mars attacks
Posts: 42,648
|
Quote:
king crimson guy here too-- doesn't have to be mutually exclusive! and of course it does. Quote:
but you're white, suchfriends! i mean gmku... (and so is steely dan) Quote:
oh yes i forgot to answer this. it was with a story. when i was 13, i think, i got my first yes record-- it was yessongs. it had been smuggled for me in someone's suitcase, because they didn't sell those at our national record stores. it was was also well past the era when yes was popular, so getting it for me was sort of difficult. but anyway it showed up in my hands. why? because some older cousin said something about it being great, etc., and when someone asked, i say "yes", and blam, yessongs. well... at the same time/age, i had discovered borges-- the writer. he blew my fucking mind with alternative universes and visions of the infinite (the mathematical infinite, not the mystical one). i remember trying to read borges while playing that yessongs record. holy shit. my brain collapsed from the overload. i had to do one at a time. so yes (ha), i had to really listen to really get it, but over the years i've learned each note by heart so that it no longer strains me. -- and yes was the band that got me interested in classical music, actually. because that shit was scarce as well, growing up, and they opened a massive door. |
|||
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 08:31 AM | #46956 |
invito al cielo
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Oxford, England
Posts: 15,225
|
I identify as non-white. Or, off-white. Whatever works.
__________________
Ever notice how this place just basically, well, sucks. |
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 08:41 AM | #46957 |
expwy. to yr skull
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,019
|
To me itīs totally same is music black or white (or maybe yellow or red). I just listen music I like. I think Flamin Grooves is quite white music (yeah, it has bluesbase blaablaablaa).
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 08:49 AM | #46958 | |
expwy. to yr skull
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,019
|
Quote:
|
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 09:05 AM | #46959 | ||
invito al cielo
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mars attacks
Posts: 42,648
|
Quote:
it doesn't work. at all, ha ha ha. but don't worry about it-- it's all bogus. listen to this prog rock album instead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDzSp5MABl4 "but it's not prog!" a lot of it sounds to me like prog motifs recombined after minimalism Quote:
oh man. when i was 10 i was the prisoner of shit radio hits. music was whatever played on the radio. and then-- blam! i wish i still had my old records but migration requires light packing. |
||
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |
06.27.2015, 09:30 AM | #46960 | |
expwy. to yr skull
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,019
|
Quote:
BTW I am listening Crimson Discipline. This is lot better album than I remembered! I am missing the warmth of Crimson seventies records, but anyway great music! |
|
|QUOTE AND REPLY| |