[Severian]

You can say what you want about Jay Z, but he's behind a number of the best hip-hop singles of the past 20 years.

I'd rather listen to "Brooklyn Go Hard," "Dead Presidents," "HOVA" or "Hard Knock Life" than "The Message" any day. Yeah, it might be more important, but it doesn't sound as good. And it can't even begin to compare the REAL classics like "Triumph," "Can I Kick it?" etc.

Just because it's the first doesn't mean it's the best, or even the mos important. That's really twisted logic. The Message was a nice blueprint, but people have built on it and transformed it, and it's got nothing on "Bombs over Baghdad" or ... fuck there's no point in even trying to list all the songs "The Message" is not better than.

[Rob Instigator]

Just a personal thang with Jay Z's music. never appeals to me. everytime I hear it I want to stop it.

Bombs Over Baghdad is not a song about societal ills. Hip Hop before The Message was DISCO man, straight fluff, party jams, to get people moving butts shaking and all that shit, completely superfluous thematically. The Message made Hip Hop a political force, more so than any other song of it's time, and it still holds up as a banger track.

Just my two cents. "Hard Knock Life" is the nadir of corpo-hip-hop. I fucking hate Jay Z and his bullshit music.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Just a personal thang with Jay Z's music. never appeals to me. everytime I hear it I want to stop it.

Bombs Over Baghdad is not a song about societal ills. Hip Hop before The Message was DISCO man, straight fluff, party jams, to get people moving butts shaking and all that shit, completely superfluous thematically. The Message made Hip Hop a political force, more so than any other song of it's time, and it still holds up as a banger track.

Just my two cents. "Hard Knock Life" is the nadir of corpo-hip-hop. I fucking hate Jay Z and his bullshit music.

Of course it's just a personal thing. "Hard Knock Life" is the epitome of awesomely weird hip-hop sampling that works when it REALLY shouldn't. Glossy and stupid as Jay was during that era, that fucking song is undeniable.

All the stuff you're saying about "The Message" is fine, but I'd still rather listen to, like, a million fucking hip-hop songs than that. I love it, but it's dated as hell. I think a case could be made that a song as recent as "Alright" is more deserving of the top spot.

The Message was just the first sketch. Hip-hop has been filled in and colored and 3-D printed and molded and sculpted into a hundred different and more interesting pieces at this point. Is "Peggy Sue" the best rock song ever?

Please. No more parties in Houston, Rob.

[louder]

I'd rather listen to Hard Knock Life than The Message or any Eminem song..

[louder]

Originally Posted by Severian

That's shit journalism, bro. Even for music journalism, which is rather shit as a rule.

Case in point:



** Emphasis not added.

Then, in that RED, BOLD "hi-jacked" but, they provide a hyperlink to an article about... Keef feeling honored to get the remix, and having ample opportunity to drop new bars for the Cuel Summer version.

Bah. That's bad slant-writing. With a bad slant. Doesn't even make sense. Yes, poor Chief Keef.

The quote I posted by Keef really made my day. I love how throughout his career he just keeps turning down all them crazy opportunities that every other rapper would only dream of, "just because".. dude doesn't give a damn about stardom, that's punk as fuck to me. Keef is so badass, man.

Also the home invasion accusations were false, so now I can appreciate him again.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by louder

I'd rather listen to Hard Knock Life than The Message or any Eminem song..

Fuuuuck yeah, my ni-- ... never mind.

Hey I'm still waiting on your response to my last pm, loudbutt.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by louder

The quote I posted by Keef really made my day. I love how throughout his career he just keeps turning down all them crazy opportunities that every other rapper would only dream of, "just because".. dude doesn't give a damn about stardom, that's punk as fuck to me. Keef is so badass, man.

Also the home invasion accusations were false, so now I can appreciate him again.

Wait, the home invasion accusations were ... false? As in, someone committed a felony by filing a false police report to frame him and now whoever did that is (presumably) in jail?

Or... was he just acquitted or something?

Gotta be crystal clear on this shit man.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Severian

Is "Peggy Sue" the best rock song ever?

The best rock song ever is Johnny B. Goode.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

The best rock song ever is Johnny B. Goode.

Not even a little bit.

It's weird that you look at things in such a traditional way — believing the alpha-song in a genre is the best song in that genre simply bevause it came first — especially since you've been outspoken about your disdain for "dad rock" like Radiohead (not dad rock), and your stubborn insistence to only listen to the newest (and worst) kind of hip-hop.

I mean, that's very strange. If you think "The Message" is the best hip-hop song, one would think you'd listen to hip-hop that is culturally and sonically connected to it; hip-hop that continues its tradition. Instead, you're all about Lil Yachty, and other artists who aren't even from the same gene pool.

One would also think you'd appreciate traditionalism — not hate on "dad rock" because it's old or whatever... or made by older people.. ???

Actually, you hate the fact that traditionalist old farts vote on the Grammys, but those old farts are more likely to measure rock based on a "Johnny B. Goode" metric, and hip-hop based on a "The Message" metric.

Anyway, you're a constant source of bewilderment for me. But maybe that's why you're "Rob Instigator" and not "Rob Participator" or "Rob Abettor" or "Rob Peacemaker."

[louder]

Johnny B. Goode honestly doesn't do too much to me.. so even if it's the BEST song, whatever.

@ Sev - I'll reply to your PM as soon as possible.

[Severian]

Also, just off the top of my head...

"A Day in the Life"
"Come Together"
"God Only Knows"
"You Really Got Me"
"Like a Rolling Stone"
"Satisfaction"
"All Along the Watchtower" (Dylan, Hendrix, as you like)
"Search and Destroy"
"Purple Rain"

Just a few hit (and hit-ish) songs in the classic rock vein that are better than "Johnny B. Goode" even though they're not quite as archtypal. I would throw several others of lesser renoun on my own personal list, but these are just some standards that are more interesting.)

[Severian]

Originally Posted by louder

Johnny B. Goode honestly doesn't do too much to me.. so even if it's the BEST song, whatever.

@ Sev - I'll reply to your PM as soon as possible.

Yeah, you do that man. I've been thinking of you.

Also, I feel like our once close-knit café crew has all but dissipated this year.

[Severian]

Louder, did you happen to hear the leaked Kanye features that popped up over the weekend? One with Migos, one with Young Thug and one with Rocky.

I'm not going to post them here because they're not done, and they weren't supposed to be heard or released, so it feels shady to share that. Also, I pray they're unfinished, because ... well, they're not good. Sonically the Migos track is ok, and Kanye's flow sounds fine, but it sounds like he's just making up the lyrics as he goes. Literally freestyling. And the result is... um... really shit lyrics, to be honest.

Don't post them. We're not here to post bad demos that were never meant to see the light of day.

[Severian]

He's apparently not in "album mode" right now, but last time he wasn't in "album mode," we got "Only One," "FourFiveSeconds," "All Day," and that fetal version of "Wolves."

Hope he re-enters "album mode" soon, or just calls it a day and retires with the best track record in hip-hop (or modern music) history.

[Severian]

OH, YEAH...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MR. WEST!!!

 

[Rob Instigator]

Hip Hop used to be about individualism and iconoclasts and trying to be as entertaining as possible while also talking real shit. I respect someone like Kanye because he is always true to himself, but I do not like what he creates.

I loved sonic youth as a young teen and janes addiction and butthole surfers and godflesh and megadeth and the misfits and dinosaur, because each on eof those groups was menacing, scary in their own way, transgressive, and did not give a flying fuck about what anyone thought of them. This is why I love Young Thug, Future, Yachty, OT Genasis, Rae Sremmurd, etc now, and why I loved Geto Boys, Outkast, UGK, Public Enemy, De La Soul etc....

I can sniff out when a musical artist is desperate for acclaim and wide acceptance above actually crafting greatness. I don't think Kanye does that so more power to him. he could give a fuck. no shame in his game. wish his music was actually as interesting to me.

Oh well.

BTW, "best ____ song ever" is always a subjective. there is no best anything ever. in truth the message is not the best hip hop track. That is impossible to define. my favorite hip hop track changes as I live and grow and shit but right now it is "Louder than a Bomb" PE https://youtu.be/vp1W2I6uWOg

[Rob Instigator]

CIA, FBI, all they tell us is lies/when I say it they get alarmed/cuz I'm louder than a bomb

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Severian

If we are being specific....

"A Day in the Life" - not a rock and roll song. This is a straight POP song, constructed like a broadway show tune. I LOVE IT. "I Want You Shes So Heavy) is my favorite Beatles song....
"Come Together" - I love this track as well, but it is more of a slow groove, bassline twist on classic soul/R&B. Not a rocker.
"God Only Knows" - not a rock song. this is a church song. BEAUTIFUL song, but not rock n roll, like Drake's Hotline Bling is NOT Hip Hop.
"You Really Got Me" - This song, if you ask Ray Davies, is a straight progression FROM Johnny B Goode. In terms of riff, lyricism, complexity and appeal, Johnny B Goode is far better.
"Like a Rolling Stone" - This is a folk song, not a rock n roll song, in structure, meter, and aim.
"Satisfaction" - so a black man invents something amazing, then some white folks from england make a watered-down version for white-ass crackers to get into without having to actually support or listen to those "horrible" blacks from America, and you think that is better than Johnny B Goode????
"All Along the Watchtower" (Dylan, Hendrix, as you like) - Hendrix took it to a new level, as geniuses do, but I bet you could ask Dylan and he would tell you that it is not a rock song like Johnny B Goode is a rock song. This is a folk song
"Search and Destroy" - Just as good as Johnny B Goode in my mind, but not as important, or influential.
"Purple Rain" - This is an R&B ballad with a rock guitar solo attached. Not a rock n roll song.

I love talking about music

[Severian]

I think "Like a Rolling Stone" is a rock song. Not a folk song. I think it was written to be, rather explicitly, not a folk song. It's even got a little swagger to it. Listen to it Live at Royal Albert Hall performance, and tell me it doesn't rock.

I guess "A Day in the Life" might not be a ROCK song, but it's also not a pop song. It's a an experimental blending, and creation, of gentes. It plants one foot in the past and a foot in the future, but it's center always seems to be in the present, even today. It eats "Stairway to Heaven" for breakfast and then shits it back out and leaves it burning on your principals doorstep. Hard to think of a more subversive mainstream song on a major album in that era. I think it qualifies as rock.

I refuse to go by theory when it comes to stuff like this. "Rock is 4/4 time and blah blah blah." I think rock is whatever rock spat out st a given moment, so "Love Will Year us Apart" is rock. "Like a Rolling Stone" is rock. "Smells like Teen Spirit" is rock. "Paranoid Android" is rock.

Just like "Hey Ya" is hip-hop even though it's really not in a technical sense. Same with innumerable Kanye songs, and, indeed, Young Thug songs. They're not hip-hop, but hip-hop had a seizure and vomited things like "Runaway" and "Who Will Survive in America," and "Hey Ya" and Death Grips and the world is a better place for it. Sometimes genres are defined and even kept alive/rejuvenated by weird-ass moments that kinda defy all expectation about what the genre means. And in that sense, "A Day in the Life" is definitively rock n' roll by virtue of how much it fucked rock n' roll in the brain.

You know what I mean, I'm sure.
Also, thanks for acknowledging that Kanye has some integrity as an artist. At least in the way we care about ("we" meaning not just you and I, but folks who define great artists by how little of a fuck they give about maintaining the status quo. Sonic Youth fans. Punk fans, etc.) even if you never like a single song of his, it's nice to hear you say that you respect him a little.

Also, I don't actually think "Satisfaction" is better than "Johnny B. Goode." The Stones have a ton of songs that are so much better than that, and I've always found it to be quite overrated.

Anyhoo... whatevs.

[Severian]

I think "Like a Rolling Stone" is a rock song. Not a folk song. I think it was written to be, rather explicitly, not a folk song. It's even got a little swagger to it. Listen to it Live at Royal Albert Hall performance, and tell me it doesn't rock.

I guess "A Day in the Life" might not be a ROCK song, but it's also not a pop song. It's a an experimental blending, and creation, of gentes. It plants one foot in the past and a foot in the future, but it's center always seems to be in the present, even today. It eats "Stairway to Heaven" for breakfast and then shits it back out and leaves it burning on your principals doorstep. Hard to think of a more subversive mainstream song on a major album in that era. I think it qualifies as rock.

I refuse to go by theory when it comes to stuff like this. "Rock is 4/4 time and blah blah blah." I think rock is whatever rock spat out st a given moment, so "Love Will Year us Apart" is rock. "Like a Rolling Stone" is rock. "Smells like Teen Spirit" is rock. "Paranoid Android" is rock.

Just like "Hey Ya" is hip-hop even though it's really not in a technical sense. Same with innumerable Kanye songs, and, indeed, Young Thug songs. They're not hip-hop, but hip-hop had a seizure and vomited things like "Runaway" and "Who Will Survive in America," and "Hey Ya" and Death Grips and the world is a better place for it. Sometimes genres are defined and even kept alive/rejuvenated by weird-ass moments that kinda defy all expectation about what the genre means. And in that sense, "A Day in the Life" is definitively rock n' roll by virtue of how much it fucked rock n' roll in the brain.

You know what I mean, I'm sure.
Also, thanks for acknowledging that Kanye has some integrity as an artist. At least in the way we care about ("we" meaning not just you and I, but folks who define great artists by how little of a fuck they give about maintaining the status quo. Sonic Youth fans. Punk fans, etc.) even if you never like a single song of his, it's nice to hear you say that you respect him a little.

Also, I don't actually think "Satisfaction" is better than "Johnny B. Goode." The Stones have a ton of songs that are so much better than that, and I've always found it to be quite overrated.

Anyhoo... whatevs.