[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by krischanski

You're right, it's only music.

But the band itself is part of a specific music scene with a typical kind of lifestyle and a general direction of political opinions and cultural life. And most of the fans will fit it, I think, and differences are less common.

In my collection I have some records from racist/ sexist/ nationalistic (metal and oi!) bands, because I like(d) the music, but I am not a fan of them and don't post in any related fan boards.

So: I'm still a bit surprised about your statements.

And: I do not need a gun. And I don't see why anyone could need one.

1. getting your political ideas from a band... why don't you read some books?

2. feel free to post in any message board you want, it's a free internet

3. i'm not a gun nut, but so far the anti-gun arguments on this thread have been pretty weak, i.e., moral rejection based on vague feelings of repugnance, or discussions of murder rate statistics. however, this is a matter of the individual vs. the state, and how much power should a society accord to the state. argue successfully the case for the state taking over and you win.

4. due to the treaty of versailles, germany had very tight gun controls before the rise of hitler. all guns were banned and seized in 1919, and only in 1928 firearm used was licensed, but very tightly (and jews weren't allowed to own them). maybe if the people had been armed the sa & ss thugs could have been stopped as they trampled their way into power? of course this is all speculation, but an unarmed populace is more easily controlled--hitler of course couldn't fuck with switzerland.

[knox]

1- This person is not even remotely saying he/she is taking political ideologies from a band.

2- If murder stats are a weak argument, then what could be a strong one? What could possibly be more important than human lives? Different priorities, perhaps? There are tricky things when you discuss public rights.
Is the right to manufacture/purchase/own a gun more important than the right to life/protection of all of those who have been dying?

3- This whole thing about americans being able to have guns to make revolution is silly. When did they do it? Last year when their money was given to bankers who fucked them overs and took their assets? When they are poor and sick and money is being spent in space programs? The only "revolution" being made with guns is civilian vs. civilian.

Besides, people don't need guns to make changes. All they need is their public opinion, their work and to realize the government needs them more than they do them.

The most important thing one needs to control to gain/maintain power is information and ideology, which leads to...

4- the speculation Hitler wouldn't have been in power if people had guns is beyond flawed. Wasn't he elected? He had the support of the majority for a long time, so once again ideology.

then I could go on about my theory on how patriotism does more harm than good, but some other time.

[ploesj]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

4. due to the treaty of versailles, germany had very tight gun controls before the rise of hitler. all guns were banned and seized in 1919, and only in 1928 firearm used was licensed, but very tightly (and jews weren't allowed to own them). maybe if the people had been armed the sa & ss thugs could have been stopped as they trampled their way into power? of course this is all speculation, but an unarmed populace is more easily controlled--hitler of course couldn't fuck with switzerland.

yeah, wow, i seriously can't agree with that. hitler was indeed elected in a time when germany was struggling, and cleverly placed the blame on one group of civilians. certainly at the beginning of his power, most germans didn't intend at all to fight him, except maybe the radical communists. it was even the opposite: he got the industry on wheels again and gave them a road network that still exists. what they saw was the good things in their own environment, and the people they were made believe to be evil disappear.

this is quite one-sided of course and i'm sure there will have been exceptions, but it is crazy what the power of one strong political individual can do with a person's mind. hitler wasn't the first one who got a whole nation into doing crazy stuff.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by ploesj

yeah, wow, i seriously can't agree with that. hitler was indeed elected in a time when germany was struggling, and cleverly placed the blame on one group of civilians. certainly at the beginning of his power, most germans didn't intend at all to fight him, except maybe the radical communists. it was even the opposite: he got the industry on wheels again and gave them a road network that still exists. what they saw was the good things in their own environment, and the people they were made believe to be evil disappear.

this is quite one-sided of course and i'm sure there will have been exceptions, but it is crazy what the power of one strong political individual can do with a person's mind. hitler wasn't the first one who got a whole nation into doing crazy stuff.

no, hitler wasn't elected, he was appointed chancellor by hindenburg, who had beat him by election. hitler never got more than 33% of the vote and the nazis never got more than 37% for the reichstag.

hitler used the fire of the reichstag (his own "911") to seize power and suspend the german constitution. from then on he was a dictator.

i can't really speculate about what would have happened in germany if people had guns, but the USA has never had a dictator. the southern states hated lincoln and tried to secede on the basis of state rights and we had a horrible civil war that started in 1865, but funny enough there have been elections throughout, lincoln had an election in the middle of civil war. there have been crooked politicians of all stripes and collusion with business and all sorts of horrors, rigged elections and such, but never an outright dictatorship, military or otherwise.

i mentioned however that switzerland was never invaded. it was called a "porcupine" by hitler. sure it wasn't just the militias and the citizen-warrior ethos, they hand control of the alpine railways, but the level of civil disobedience and guerrilla warfare in switzerland would have been incredibly costly to his war efforts if he had invaded. the population was never going to comply.

[chicka]

Has anybody changed their mind yet? I can't believe you're still arguing about guns

[demonrail666]

Maybe they should have a duel

[Glice]

Come on. I don't need to do any research to be able to say with a lot of confidence that there are probably loads of countries that have had neither dictator or guns.

Switzerland is a topological bastard to invade. Same problem the Romans had, no?

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by krischanski

And: I do not need a gun. And I don't see why anyone could need one.

consider yrself lucky on the first point you make, and consider yr opinion moot when it comes to anyone else's decision to purchase or NEED a firearm.

[Rob Instigator]

we must heed the warnings of RED DAWN.....

wolverines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by chicka

Has anybody changed their mind yet? I can't believe you're still arguing about guns

i did change my mind from this thread actually. in the opposite direction than i expected.

and we're not arguing the way an angry dysfunctional couple argues-- we're having a discussion. with, you know, "ideas". at least as much as possible.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Maybe they should have a duel

ha ha.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

and we're not arguing the way an angry dysfunctional couple argues-- we're having a discussion. with, you know, "ideas". at least as much as possible.

By ""ideas". at least as much as possible" do you mean "PREMATURE EJACULATION FOR THE LAST 15 TORTUOUS YEARS you heartless bastard. Oh, I used to be young and pretty, LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO ME. And now I'm fat and stuck with you and your pathetic penis. God, I hate you so much."?

[Glice]

The more sophisticated amongst you might like to note the double sense of 'dysfunctional' in that last post.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Glice

Come on. I don't need to do any research to be able to say with a lot of confidence that there are probably loads of countries that have had neither dictator or guns.

Switzerland is a topological bastard to invade. Same problem the Romans had, no?

the romans didn't have tanks and airplanes and armored cars and motorcycles and machine guns. hitler could have taken switzerland. keeping it would have been another story.

churchill spoke of fighting on the beaches and the landing strips and the streets, but the swiss were ready from day 1.

add to "countries without dictators" countries without kings and emperors and a titled aristocracy and your research-free pool very suddenly shrinks. i know it's probably not a fair comparison, a 200+ year old modern country with countries that go back over 1000 years in history, but why not? 300 years ago we had monarchies ruling the whole planet.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Glice

By ""ideas". at least as much as possible" do you mean "PREMATURE EJACULATION FOR THE LAST 15 TORTUOUS YEARS you heartless bastard. Oh, I used to be young and pretty, LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO ME. And now I'm fat and stuck with you and your pathetic penis. God, I hate you so much."?

haa haa haa.

[Rob Instigator]

someone needs to come up with a nefarius little virus that attacks and kills only "royalty"

that would be so much FUN!!!! watching them all die as they wither away robed in their ermine and mink asswipe.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by krischanski

The exception proves the rule. (If it's the same scene. Don't know these names.)

GG Allin beat up women on stage. Shat all over the place. Was constantly drunk, wrote songs about exposing himself to children, was a junky, SERIOUSLY violent individual....

This isn't to say Thurston or J appreciate such ideas...but they def. were fans (enough to where they jammed with/wrote liner notes for the dude's albums).

All I'm saying is, you did CLEARLY establish a need to pigeonhole people because of a band they listen to. Whats next??? Metallica fans are all dumbass HS dropouts? For real, man. SY shouldn't be worked into these sorta debates. They are entertainment...not a lifestyle.

....

There's nothing "wild west" about one wanting to protect him/herself....

[knox]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

but the USA has never had a dictator

lol.

it's ok because WE did have US dictatorship.

this has nothing to do with the gun control debate.

didn't switzerland have all the banks the nazis were sending money to?

[knox]

where are all the revolutions? where are all the constitutional by right revolutions? with guns?

so instead, let's be logical and i'd like to hear

we all know people get guns, we all know guns make it easier for killers to kill, we all know people die as a result of legally purchased guns. so which right is more important? to protect yourself or to protect society as a whole? whose rights are more important? the rights of the ones that have proctected themselves or the rights of the ones who die? or do dead people have no rights?

and i'll ask one more time: Althought I'd say most people shouldn't be driving, unfortunately people NEED cars in most areas. From what Rob told me, it's much easier and quicker getting a permit to puchase a gun than getting a permit to drive a car, does that make any sense? Given that people can ve violent, insane and whatnot does it make any sense to assume ANYONE is apt to carry a gun as long as they haven't been committing crimes or being to a madhouse yet?

Is it not putting society in danger that there is no screening? Ask anyone who's had a relative shot over a petty fight in a nightclub or something. Well, I believe these people had the right to be protected by stricter regulations.

And please don't say these people would kill anyway, it's much harder to stab someone to death.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

lol.

and that's why i don't argue with trolls

[Rob Instigator]

regulation is fine and dandy, just don't screw with the Bill of Rights to get it done.