[jon boy]

didnt chuck d say something about there being no place in black culture for gay people? seem to recall that.

[jico.]

for me, ideals like antisemitism are unquestionably unethical. there's nothing to shock.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by jico.

for me, ideals like antisemitism are unquestionably unethical. there's nothing to shock.

See, the problem with this is that, while I am entirely and rabidly against antisemitism [I don't need to qualify that], I do think that, in some regards, music represents the voice of some people. Racism in Anglo-American music is just stupid individuals with stupid opinions. And I'm not going to be stupid enough to say that anti-semitic music is necessary or good - it isn't. But that's not to say that a culture who feel strongly negative about the existence of Israel shouldn't represent in song their feelings. Anti-Israel is not, prima facie, anti-semitism.

This is a pretty tricky argument to navigate - by analogy, that doesn't justify the homophobia of Dancehall/ hip-hop; however, it does go a way to explaining it. With Dancehall, it largely comes from a country with a fairly militant police force and, so far as I know, pretty clear opinions on 'the gays'. I'm not sure if 'the gays' are illegal there, but I'm fairly confident that 'the gays' don't have the liberties they do in this country.

I remember a Steven Wells article about Burzum, years ago (actually, it was that article that made me check them out) where he said it's easy to be a racist in Norway, there's roughly 5 black families there. It's a different thing in Birmingham/ the Bronx.

I suppose the problem is that a music cannot represent a sophisticated situation, such as that of Israel, instantaneously and catchily in 3-4 minutes. But does that mean people shouldn't represent opinions on it in song, however much we 'the liberal west' dislike it?

FORFUCK'SSAKEISOUNDLIKEI'MWRITINGFORTHEFUCKINGGUAR DIAN.

[hat and beard]

I suppose I should reply to this thread since my posting of the Dead Reptile Shrine record kicked the discussion off, but I don't really have much to say that hasn't already been said.
Though I don't mind listening to artists whose views I don't share 100%, try as I might, I find it incredibly difficult to listen to artists with blatant racist/homophobic etc. tendencies, even if said tendencies aren't represented clearly in their music. I had a brief interest in Boyd Rice, for example, but after discovering what a total twat he is in real life I just can't bear to listen to his music anymore. The fact that he is a fairly intelligent and well-spoken twat makes it all the more worse.
Somehow the NS imagery of DRS went right by me. I generally stay away from black metal for the reason stated above, but the DRS record sounded so completely otherwordly to me I kind of naively assumed that whoever made the music was beyond such silly worldly concepts as political movements etc. Shows what I know. Guess I should read the song titles next time.

[jico.]

Originally Posted by Glice

See, the problem with this is that, while I am entirely and rabidly against antisemitism [I don't need to qualify that], I do think that, in some regards, music represents the voice of some people. Racism in Anglo-American music is just stupid individuals with stupid opinions. And I'm not going to be stupid enough to say that anti-semitic music is necessary or good - it isn't. But that's not to say that a culture who feel strongly negative about the existence of Israel shouldn't represent in song their feelings. Anti-Israel is not, prima facie, anti-semitism.

This is a pretty tricky argument to navigate - by analogy, that doesn't justify the homophobia of Dancehall/ hip-hop; however, it does go a way to explaining it. With Dancehall, it largely comes from a country with a fairly militant police force and, so far as I know, pretty clear opinions on 'the gays'. I'm not sure if 'the gays' are illegal there, but I'm fairly confident that 'the gays' don't have the liberties they do in this country.

I remember a Steven Wells article about Burzum, years ago (actually, it was that article that made me check them out) where he said it's easy to be a racist in Norway, there's roughly 5 black families there. It's a different thing in Birmingham/ the Bronx.

I suppose the problem is that a music cannot represent a sophisticated situation, such as that of Israel, instantaneously and catchily in 3-4 minutes. But does that mean people shouldn't represent opinions on it in song, however much we 'the liberal west' dislike it?

FORFUCK'SSAKEISOUNDLIKEI'MWRITINGFORTHEFUCKINGGUAR DIAN.

yes, antisemitism and being anti-israel are not the same thing and questioning the existance of the state of israel and especially the way it was formed it's not unethical, it's not a crime and for me it's not immoral.
people living in a democratic state have the right to have and express their opinion,
but if they express or comit acts that go against the principles of their democratic state, they are committing a crime must respond for them.
expressing anti-israel ideas is not a crime.
expressing racism is a severe impescriptible crime
etc. etc.

[Bicorn Halfelven]

Hat and beard -

Just wanted to thank you again for posting the DRS record and turning me on to them. The record is wonderful and has that "transporting" quality I look for and rarely find.

Also want to thank you, for indirectly and inadvertantly kicking off this discussion. Seems a lot of people here have strong opinions on said subject, and that's great. Whether or not you are indifferent to the politics involved with a certain artist, it's wonderful y'all are thinking about this and able to converse in a civilized manner.

I, for one, won't monetarilly support an artist whose views I have a strong reaction against. It does not mean I do not respect or even enjoy their music... they just won't be getting any of my cash. They, of course, have every right to hold such an opinion, whether it be the unabashed NS views of Satanic Warmaster, or the streamlined leftism of RATM.

I'm sure the fellow(s) behind DRS are intelligent beings, but I am left to wonder if the cover art/song titles are simply a matter of shock value for shock value's sake. If so, it's a little disappointing. Maybe more so than if they actually do hold strong NS beliefs. Possibly, it's a matter of making one's art more "kvlt", more inaccessible... limiting releases to 200 or fewer copies, using odd/waning formats (3" CDs, cassettes), etc. It could be a "fuck you" to the hipsters engaging themselves with black metal, scaring them away with something only those who don't care or are "tr00 kvlt" themselves would touch.

In any case, I totally enjoy this record and recommend it to anybody who has a taste for noise/black metal/insanity.

[Bicorn Halfelven]

Oh, and by the way, if anybody likes that Dead Reptile Shrine joint, check out Dead Raven Choir... quite similar, if a little more "tame".

[Everyneurotic]

i'm shocked by severe leftism in music but more in how it's accepted.

[pbradley]

What do you mean by severe? Dead Kennedys? Some socialist bands that I'm not aware of?

[Everyneurotic]

no, dead kennedys were very critical and satirical, they were criticizing and commenting on them with tons of humor.

i mean like, when they sing about populism and enviromentalism and shit like that, i guess people like fugazi and saul williams...well fugazi are hilarious but still.

[atsonicpark]

"guy" (pronounced gee) from fugazi is probably my favorite comedian of all time, actually..

[Bicorn Halfelven]

Originally Posted by Everyneurotic

i'm shocked by severe leftism in music but more in how it's accepted.

Really? It's so much more commonplace... Crass, RATM, DK (Jello specifically), dead prez, etc.

[k-krack]

Originally Posted by atsonicpark

"guy" (pronounced gee)

...was this really necessary? Or just like, "hah! I know how it's pronounced! Do you?"
WELL I DO, OKAY, I AM CANADIAN, AND WE ARE ALL FRENCH-NAMED HERE. OKAY!?

They both funny guys, Guy and Ian.
Also, the Locust have some hilarious lyrics, and since they all write songs, I won't bother naming names.

Wait, what's this thread even about, I never really checked...

[k-krack]

Originally Posted by Everyneurotic

i'm shocked by severe leftism in music but more in how it's accepted.

What???
Have you never heard of anarchism? Every second band is real leftist.
The DIY ethic is like, heavy leftist shit all the way.
Plan It X records, No Idea records, hell even Constellation are hella left-wing.


Do you mean right? Like.. christian music or... Prussian Blue

The thing with homophobic lyrics in hip hop is that it makes you think that if that level of serious intolerance for a group of people is acceptable for one artist, what about antisemitic or racist lyrics? Are they acceptable too? I suppose the only way to look at it is that there are way too many people with the wrong ideas or wrong attitudes making music. In saying that, I love hip hop and dancehall music, and it's just a case of completely ignoring some of the lyrics and listening to the music because you know that a complete idiot might be spitting out some bollocks.

[MellySingsDoom]

Originally Posted by Glice

With Dancehall, it largely comes from a country with a fairly militant police force and, so far as I know, pretty clear opinions on 'the gays'. I'm not sure if 'the gays' are illegal there, but I'm fairly confident that 'the gays' don't have the liberties they do in this country

If I recall correctly, homosexuality in Jamaica is illegal, with the penalty (if found guilty of being gay) of 10 years hard labour.

[ZEROpumpkins]

Thats horrible, but the words (found guilty of being gay) made me lol. Countries like that are pretty conservative.

[Anti-Globalism]

Originally Posted by atsonicpark

Well, what I don't really see is the point in labeling yourself as a racist band; making it part of your imagery or whatever.. I'm sure 80% of musicians have strong beliefs in things we wholeheartedly disagree with, but they don't have to make it the focal point in their music.

I don't think any lyrics or art or anything should be censored, but I agree that it seems most bands just put out this kind of stuff to "shock" people anyway.

You can be racist without being in a "racist band" and letting your racism shine through in everything you do... we all have sides of us that no one sees and beliefs that we may not completely advertise, so yeah.. just don't make it the focal point of the band.

Valid statements and one that all RAC/WP bands should take to heart. I sure find it a turn-off when a band has nothing to say but "we hate negroes," in 300 creative ways.

However, if you believe that humanity is heading for a disgusting end and wish to avert it, and racism is a cornerstone of your ideology, it becomes very important to have it be well-known. I'm thinking more of nationalists (Each nation for its own ethnic group) than "racists" here, because racist to me means someone who wants multiculturalism but wants other races to do his laundry. Pan-Nationalism makes more sense to me because I don't really like hate, haters, anger, violent stupidity, scorn, cruelty, bigotry and all that mess.

In black metal, I think of Burzum, Immortal, Emperor, Darkthrone, Graveland, Ildjarn and Absurd when I think of this type of outlook. They are not ranting about black people and Jews in every song. They know their audience is sick of it. But nationalism is a component of their ideology, and it's always there, like any other truth an artist finds...

[Anti-Globalism]

Originally Posted by jon boy

didnt chuck d say something about there being no place in black culture for gay people?

It's their culture. They should be able to include whoever they want to.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

what?