[PAULYBEE2656]

HA1 THIS THREAD IS GETTING BETTER BY THE DAY

oh yeah sorry...
fuck em

[max]

the thing is, every band nowadays, to some extent, has to expose itself to some kind of corporate mentality in order to sell stuff, or even getting on the press.... i.e. - pay people to put your picture on a magazine, get good reviews, get reviews, get video rotation, get a pr agency at all etc etc

this is the real problem above all, in my opinion. those with the money win big time.

i say let everyone enjoy whatever they want to, if that suits their own taste.
imho, the sad thing is that (it goes without saying) most of the time a band backed by huge financial assets is pure crap.

always bear in mind the line from G.A. R.'s timeless Dawn of the Dead:

Peter: Ain't it a crime.
Stephen: What?
Peter: The only person who could miss with this gun is the sucker with the bread to buy it.

[Kegmama]

Ok. So I got you all beat... My 10-yr old daughter who actually does appreciate good music (SY, Nirvana, Pixies, Weezer, etc), is going thru this tween stage right now and absolutley adores the Jo Bros. To prove my love to her I endured taking her and her friends to a sold out Jonas Brothers concert last summer. 20,000+ screaming girls is what killed me, not the band. They actually are talented little boys who write their own music, play multiple instruments, all the while performing backflips and totally entertaining their fans. They are most definitely sellouts. They are a product of Disney and being well-raped by our society. BUT, they are talented little shits who maintain a 'good-boy' image and have allowed themselves to be marketed well imo.

[Green Magnesium]

I had a nightmare that they gang-raped me last night.

well maybe it wasn't exactly a nightmare...

[Decayed Rhapsody]

What's so wrong with getting PAID?

 

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Glice

2 things, and they're points I've made time and again here, so I won't go into any detail.

1. Authenticity is, was, and ever shall be bullshit. Music is an ARTFORM. Pearl Jam are SHIT. They can play their instruments, and they sing about their REAL LIFE but they are SHIT.

2. Any negative criticism of the marketing model of a band made by a fan of Sonic Youth is inherently dubious. Ashtray Navigations use marketing, they just don't have the clout of Disney.

A fine counterargument to someone who would criticize Disney bands but I'm simply asking, is it really is all that surprising that people would criticize Disney bands along those lines of argument?

But to your second point, surely there is a distinction between marketing models (of which, I assume, there are a large variety) and marketing itself. I think somebody criticising Disney bands wouldn't condemn all marketing but argue that Disney uses an exaggeration of a wrong marketing model that subjugates artistic integrity to demographic aesthetics and commercial presence (or something, this is not my own argument). For instance, Sonic Youth and Ashtray Navigations don't have their own television shows, nor do they have cameos in their labels' latest summer movies (as with the new Night at the Museum film).

Ashtray Navigations don't use marketing.

Nevermind, what Glice meant is that we all mostly sell what we blah... with blah.. blah..

[Glice]

It's only surprising because it's depressing - for me, the true mark of the insidious nature of vulgar capitalism is the way in which those who decry it simultaneously perpetuate it - remember the pictures of the Seattle riots, the guy wearing Nike trainers [/pumps/ sneakers] on top of the Nike building? I'm not proposing an escape trajectory from capitalism. I'd also agree that there is room for modifications, and shades of capitalism, and preferential models (in the same way that I believe in democracy, but not necessarily the British form of democracy). All I'd like to make clear is that the Jonas Brothers are hardly worth criticising when they are clearly a flash in the pan. Give it ten minutes and the pop industry will throw up some more fluff that won't inhibit my life any, and will make a lot of children happy. I don't want children listening to gore beyond necropsy, I'm quite happy for them to listen to something innocuous and enjoyable like JB.

Having said that, when I saw them live, I did think they were awful, in much the same way my 9-year-old neice isn't a huge fan of Bernard Parmegiani ("It's pooey" were her exact words).

"subjugates artistic integrity to demographic aesthetics and commercial presence" The problem is that I'm unwilling to draw that line. It's interesting you say 'demographic aesthetics', because the usual thing is to assume that demographics and aesthetics are very distinct. Artistic integrity, I'll repeat, is bunkum. The integrity of the art is its existence. It's more complicated than that, but in this instance, I can't defend John Cage's artistic integrity without also defending Jonas Brothes, which is a curious state to be in.

What JB have that a lot of people don't have is masses of consideration to them. You know, some composers spend years on their compositions, and the fact it takes great teams of people to make a proper pop album (regardless of whether I like it) suggests that there's masses of craft goes into it. I suppose what I'm saying is that JB are like architecture, and Cage is like painting.

I'm not entirely sure why I'm writing this, I don't think you're actually proposing the positions you're suggesting.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

Ashtray Navigations don't use marketing.

Which is a form of marketing.

Obviously, it isn't, not in any meaningful sense, but the point is that a lack of financial clout often endears people to a band. Personally, I'm much, much more inclined to pick up an Ashtray CD than a more popular (as in full-page ads in magazines) group because I feel a bit of the 'support the underdog' vibe, and that's a demographic I fill.

I don't disagree with (some) of that, I'd just spend less words trying to prove that point, that's all.

[Glice]

Fewer words, greater concision; but, y'know, intershit...

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Glice

It's interesting you say 'demographic aesthetics', because the usual thing is to assume that demographics and aesthetics are very distinct.

I don't think it's all that unusual amongst marketing theory, which by 'demographic aesthetics' I mean the aesthetic preferences that contextualizes a target demographic as a pop cultural force (which, of course, is always too general to be correct but general enough to market). But I don't know anything about marketing so this is more or less a guess.

Originally Posted by Glice

I'm not entirely sure why I'm writing this, I don't think you're actually proposing the positions you're suggesting.

Your first paragraph was a valid reply to what I was arguing. I suppose I'm not surprised by such negative reactions because I figure discussion of popular music naturally entails a lot of hypocrisy and digressive reasoning. I don't even think this is the result of capitalism nor democracy as much as from being intersubjectivity with little to no possibility for verifiability.

[Glice]

"or something, this is not my own argument" struck me as rendering whatever I was blathering on about as largely pointless. Which it is really. By which I mean, I can't really be arsed to argue this point on this forum as I'm just sticking a hand in the air and saying "Yes, I'm this sort of cunt" as opposed to decrying JB by sticking my hand in the air and saying "Ah, I'm this sort of cunt".

[pbradley]

Ha ha, duly noted.

[jon boy]

ashtray navigations marketed by giving me free cd's in the past. that was nice.

[canabero]

Chabib: delete this thread please

[Everyneurotic]

chabib: make this thread a sticky.

[PAULYBEE2656]

fuck em

[Shifty Prophet]

I'm mad at myself for missing this: