[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

Bottom line going back to my statement about the 2%, my paycheck today was short $40. So, I will now be bringing home $80 less per month than I was in December......no lies about that! Fortunately, I received a cost of living increase back in October and I'm still bringing home more now than I was in September.

Heavens to Betsy!

So is 80 extra dollars a month really NOT worth freeways, traffic lights, sewage treatment, tap water, the post office, safe air travel, international defense, crucial public health care for the geriatric, poor, and disabled, as well as 100,000 public schools for all the kiddies?

[afterthefact]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Heavens to Betsy!

So is 80 extra dollars a month really NOT worth freeways, traffic lights, sewage treatment, tap water, the post office, safe air travel, international defense, crucial public health care for the geriatric, poor, and disabled, as well as 100,000 public schools for all the kiddies?

Yeah! Because that's why the taxes went up! Asphalt just got more expensive! Oh goodie, because now there will never be another pothole, and universal healthcare will be free!

Oh wait, that's right. Those things aren't why the taxes increased, and we won't see any change in the things mentioned. Dang, nevermind, that sucks...

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by afterthefact

Yeah! Because that's why the taxes went up! Asphalt just got more expensive! Oh goodie, because now there will never be another pothole, and universal healthcare will be free!

Oh wait, that's right. Those things aren't why the taxes increased, and we won't see any change in the things mentioned. Dang, nevermind, that sucks...

You are only half correct, but all political realities point out that we have to accept that without such taxes the system would be even more underfunded. We can't just magically erase around $1 TRILLION annually, just like we can't suddenly deport 11 MILLION people. Reality is reality, and the reality is America costs money, and the Bush tax cuts from 2001-2012 cost America about $3 TRILLION in deficit spending. The War(s) cost around another $2 TRILLION (but it secretly may be as high as $3 TRILLION) in deficit spending. That is a fairly large hole. Further, the bar was basically already raised that high in 2009 when Obama took over so his $4 TRILLION added are just more of that same bullshit, taxes too low to pay for the demand in services. There is about $750 BILLION estimated in Medicare fraud every year, so in theory we could over enough time make that efficient enough, but in the meantime here and now if we were to just cut anything more than the $780 BILLION already implemented by Obama, the elderly, disabled and poor who rely on that medical coverage would suffer, perhaps even life and death. Further, we'd pay it out the ass in government funded ER visits. America's reality is quite simple, for decades nobody wants to pay for anything which we all use. Public infrastructure and public services and of course Medicare and National Defense. We either (a) have to split Solomon's baby here or (b) pony up and pay. The Clinton era proved that after several years of higher taxes in a balanced, pro-growth way that we can actually go from budget deficits to budget surplus. If the Bush II administration and the GOP hadn't gotten to damned greedy and just not enacted these stupid cuts in the first place, we probably would have rolled with those $200-400BILLION annual budget surpluses and started paying down national debt instead of contributing towards it. But the grim reality is so-called fiscal conservatives love deficits as much as anyone, in fact under Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II the country's deficit spending sky-rocketed, realistically Obama is just a continuation of the same, and by no surprise, its because we've had four years of BUSH tax rates under Obama, those bullshit trickle-down economic tax rates which didn't work in the 1980s (which is why Bush I had to raise them) and didn't work in the 1990s (which is why Clinton had to raise them) and didn't work in the Bush II 2000s (which is which is Obama has to raise them).

America, pay up already, Jesus, we have this great society full of advanced development and we'd rather bicker over paying for it? Lord have His mercy! What selfish waste, what short-sighted self-destruction.

[EVOLghost]

I hate hearing about how our taxes are being spent on services. I'd GLADLY pay more money to better our school system, but I thinkk the systgem is shit. so.......fuck asll...

[!@#$%!]

@ suchfriends et. al.-- no, no, no000...

bytor's pay cut comes from FICA -- "federal insurance contributions tax". in other words, SOCIAL SECURITY.

it's not for any of the things you list.

http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/fic...2-and-s-19767/

please read and understand....

also, bytor revised his change in paycheck so that $80 figure doesn't count. he's estimating it's gonna be $50-- regardless, it's easy to calculate-- 2% of gross pay. for SOCIAL SECURITY. nothing else.

now, some people consider social security to be nothing but an accounting gimmick, but still, this "end-of-tax-holiday" is NOT for roads, not for schools, not for safe air travel, not for defense, etc.... it's for SOCIAL SECURITY. not the general concept of "security" in "society", but specifically "old age, survivor, and disability insurance" of the federal government.

IT GOES HERE!!

alright, i hope that clarifies.

[gast30]

now we are talking about money
seen this space x project
first commercial spaceflights for visits to space
with satellites, food and equipment for spacestation or austronauts

these are the times to invest in modernisme and take it to the next level

is someone interested in investing ?

for 250.000 $ you can invest in my modern project Y obligations

pm me if you want to
thanks bro

[gast30]

like you baboons have any money

you people just can afford clothes to cover your hairy ape ass

don't lie to yourself
thanks

[gast30]

lol

no, i don't love your money

i love you

sincerely

your long haird long distance ape/caveman family member

[gast30]

now i need to find someone like me
who loves me for me

yes yes
lol

[h8kurdt]

I'm now convinced that Foreverasskiss and gast30 are the same person. Either that or we have two shit spurters on this forum and that is just not possible.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

@ suchfriends et. al.-- no, no, no000...

bytor's pay cut comes from FICA -- "federal insurance contributions tax". in other words, SOCIAL SECURITY.

it's not for any of the things you list.

http://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/fic...2-and-s-19767/

please read and understand....

also, bytor revised his change in paycheck so that $80 figure doesn't count. he's estimating it's gonna be $50-- regardless, it's easy to calculate-- 2% of gross pay. for SOCIAL SECURITY. nothing else.

now, some people consider social security to be nothing but an accounting gimmick, but still, this "end-of-tax-holiday" is NOT for roads, not for schools, not for safe air travel, not for defense, etc.... it's for SOCIAL SECURITY. not the general concept of "security" in "society", but specifically "old age, survivor, and disability insurance" of the federal government.

IT GOES HERE!!

alright, i hope that clarifies.

Isn't social security a public service? So would Americans rather pay for their elderly relatives housing and medical treatment directly instead of letting the government pay the tab? Wait, aren't there also MILLIONS OF DISABLED AMERICANS receiving funding from social security too? See how that works?

Remember we are in brinkmanship politics, so even if these taxes don't go directly to pay for public services, public services are the FIRST to be threatened if other aspects of government spending aren't meant. So while all our taxes in general don't necessarily directly go towards public services, if we don't pay up, our current political system will inevitably cut public services before anything else. We have two battles, the first is to keep spending level and even increase in public services, and second to start making our tax system more efficient. First things are first though, which is to pay up. Once we're all in, then we can get back to debating about cutting inefficient tax structures and spending programs. I am not pretending there isn't staggering, soul-crushing levels of fraud, corruption, inefficiency, and waste in government. However and again, this crooked shitstem has us against them, and so we need to accept certain things. I prefer to pay my bills and fight the other battles spiritually like a danza Azteca. Don't let me fool you, I am not in favor of the government, the government is evil. This government is evil. But the currently proposed alternatives are simply eviler.

[!@#$%!]

yes yes but you're talking about bridges and schools and all manner of things that make it all completely unfocused and impossible to examine. sure if we want everything we should pay for everything, but we can't.

the question with money is it isn't infinite and we have to make choices: "i want 1,000,000 nukes and 10,000,000 bycicles" "sorry little boy you can only have 1,000 nukes and 5,000 bycicles" "but i want 1,000,000 nukes" "i can give you more nukes if you give up some bycicles, but it's not going to be as many as you want" etc.

the question with taxes is what do you want the government to provide and what do you want to buy yourself. wingnuts want to poice themseves with guns and homeschool themselves in their compounds and travel through toll roads. moonbats want everything free without having to work for it. somewhere in between there's a reasonable compromise.

the question to ask bytor is not if he wants to pay for the army. the question is much smaler: "isn't your $50/month aka $600/year worth it so that we can keep social security strong and not in danger of going broke and leaving retired people and the disabled completely destitute?"

to which he might answer

a) yeah, i guess it's worth it, so we don't have old people dying in the streets!

or

b) i'd rather invest my own money and not have the government take it away so they can dip their grubby hands into the social security trust fund and never pay back

then you can have a real discussion between clear alternatives or maybe something else.

note: we've had these 6.2% FICA rates since the days of Emperor Bush I, btw. so to blame obama is fallacious and ridonculous.

but also note-- it's also fallacious to call them "6.2%" since employers have to pay an additional 6.2%. so that's 12.4% of payroll-- the split is an accounting gimmick--just for social security. when you add medicare is slightly north of 15% for mandatory savings that you can't control.

that's a fuckload of money before any federal, state, local, sales, and other taxes are harvested.

and i would have no problem with it if we could indeed guarantee old folks a safe and dignified retirement with that money. problem is, the scheme is a bit iffy it seems when the government can borrow from the trust fund and pay back by printing devalued money AND when the people are collecting more than they are contributing. with our demographics, and current rates, it looks a bit of a ponzi scheme (albeit an involuntary one).

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

yes yes but you're talking about bridges and schools and all manner of things that make it all completely unfocused and impossible to examine. sure if we want everything we should pay for everything, but we can't.

I specifically mentioned care for the elderly and disabled both financially and medically twice

I appreciate the substantive discussions on Social Security, it like Medicare, the Military, and Police-Prisons are surely public spending where we can find room for efficiency while cutting frightening levels of fraud and corruption. However and again, in our current political situation, that is unlikely and a wasted effort. I agree with you that it seems quite reasonable, but reasonable isn't the game. So I say (a) raise the taxes to Clinton levels and everybody just deal with it (b) cut the military spending according the Sequestration if not more and (c) lets get to work cutting out the corruption and fraud from Social Security/Medicare so that everybody can stop crying wolf and we can get over it already and get back to living in a terrible country. Lord Jesus in all my life I never thought I would be siding with the government, but things are so horribly inept lately that I have to pause, temporarily side with the government just so the currently shitty things can get back to their previous levels of shittiness and and then I can get back to hating the government and everything will be in its right place.

 

[!@#$%!]

Alright, I realize you're talking about the "clif" in general, not responding to Bytor's specific $50 complaint. I was just telling him the facts about his $50. The reason I chose to do that is because he copypasted some bullshit scribble that read:

Originally Posted by Bytor's copypasta

The numbers? Well the average paycheck will see a $200 a month decrease in what you make. Meaning - you will pay around $200 more a month in payroll taxes. The Bush tax cuts are now gone. The government wins - you now will pay your fair share.

See how cleverly done is it? It's saying that the "increase" in payroll taxes negates the Bush tax cuts. But that's not an increase exactly-- it's a return from a temporary emergency reduction to "stimulate the economy".

You debunk one lie and the whole edifice of crap collapses.

Now I get it that you want to argue something else beyond that specific point. You're saying that taxes are worth paying and Americans shouldn't be such selfish individualistic assholes.

I agree with you in part. But I also see the point of the opposition-- that you or me are better equipped to decide what we do with our moneys than some politically-driven bureaucracy.

This country was created in part by selfish individualistic assholes who exterminated indians and enslaved blacks in the name of liberty. So you can't ignore the libertarian streak in American politics that habitually and traditionally ignores externalities-- even if Ron Paul was never going to be elected, Americans believe they demand less from their government than people in other countries. This is particularly true in rural areas and among ethnic groups like the Scots-Irish. They want to be left alone to fend for themselves and they see you as a commie thief who wants to fund his lifestyle from their hard work.

Compromise between irreconcilable views is by definition a bitch. So we have a shit compromise bill and another showdown in 2 moths. And more shit down the road. Yep. That's the price of living with people who are different than you are (I don't mean you personally, I mean the impersonal "you").

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

The negative trickle down effect is about to become staggering.....not sure if we can truly comprehend it?

You have that completely backwards. For the first four years of President Obama's term, America had the Bush II tax cuts in place, and the Bush II spending levels (both military and stimulus budgets were part of Bush II administration), then quite literally we've just had four years of TRICKLE DOWN economics which again, failed in the 1980s (hence Reagan's "readjustments" and Bush I raising the taxes), failed in the 1990s (hence why Clinton raised the taxes), and have clearly failed in the 2000s (which is why finally Obama has to raise them). Its a put up or shut up moment in America

[tw2113]

I think the federal government has the spending problem, not the middle class. I honestly think we need to overhaul our foreign policy and get the federal government to start being frugal and cut wasteful spending.

[gast30]

i have an idea to help americans

i'm going to send a calculator to the us
tomorrow is monday and if i send it with post it takes around 10 days to arrive in america

this

 

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

YES it is......and the "shut up" will be in the form of people having their cable TV and cell phones shut off......leading those companies to lay off working people. I'm not saying it will be like this six months from now, but I have no doubt it will be by time we vote for another President.

Dude, so that is the American standard then? Expensive cell-phone contracts with the newest iPhone or Galaxy and all pay TV? Meanwhile 46 MILLION people collect food stamps, and the same number have ZERO access to healthcare for preventable disease? I'd prefer an America we we willingly as Americans sacrifice luxury creature comforts for the overall greater good of our society. That is what Obamacare symbolizes. Medicare expansion is crucial. That is what Social Security/Disability represents, taking care of the needs of those in our society who by circumstance of age or health can't take care of themselves fully. It is not a Utopia, but why take away those things which are the best aspects of our otherwise fucked up country? So what, all we want left is war(s) and 2.1 MILLION prisoners?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by tw2113

I think the federal government has the spending problem, not the middle class. I honestly think we need to overhaul our foreign policy and get the federal government to start being frugal and cut wasteful spending.

Couldn't agree more, but don't let those fucking supposed "fiscal conservatives" fool you, theirs is not a financial agenda, it is a "free-market capitalist" ideological agenda to gut the public system and social safety net in the name of so-called meritocracy. Responsibly cutting spending would be to reform the tax system to remove fringe benefits and perks for the wealthy who realistically don't need them, while attacking corruption and fraud within the system. The budget hawks aren't tackling fraud or corruption in any way, they insistently propose bills and legislation to gut public services. Could social security be more efficient? Of course. However that is not exactly what "conservatives" ever proposed. Further, we have a shit load of waste in military spending, but nobody on either party has the balls to cut that either. We need to have spending cuts for sure, but just not any of the kinds which have been proposed the past two or three years. Cut the fat, cut the waste, but don't cut what is essential. Again, America will find out the hard way just how much taking care of their elder relatives, the sickly, the disabled, and of course public infrastructure and education of our children actually costs if we all pay up front like some Libertarian fantasy. Its all in or all out. I say everyone who wants to collect benefits and services from the government should put up or shut up. If fiscal conservatives don't want government spending, start with themselves and reject the Medicare their elderly parents or even themselves may be collecting, stop taking all the tax breaks (including those for donations to non-profit conservative think tanks and lobbyist, that shit is like Shakespearean irony yo!) and loop holes which are a form of government spending, and put your kids or grandchildren in private secondary schools and private colleges (and don't even bother to fill out a FAFSA form you free-riding cheapskates)

 

[!@#$%!]

it's easy to call for spending cuts, the issue is WHAT to cut.

do you cut NASA, do you cut food safety, do you cut the navy, do you cut social security and medicare, do you cut food stamps, what do you cut?

funny thing during the presidential debates that the traditional roles were reversed when romney wanted to buy aircraft carriers the navy didn't want-- and he said that they could create jobs (LOL). well they would, but that's a keynesian argument.

anyway i'm for spending in infrastructure-- electrical grid and highway and water and sewage and rail and airports and internet. and of course education. i'd say the biggest savings would be to pull the troops from all around the globe and reduce the armed forces. does the US need to be the world's cop? no it doesn't. let the rest of the world pay for their own defense. shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittt!

 

http://www.addictedtowar.com/atw6a.html