[Severian]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

stop being a pussy. someone insults you insult them back.

you let him talk to you like that? fuck that!!!

Genteel is a big dick sucker asshole faggot elitist. I said it. doesn't hurt me. I bet it will effect him somehow or someone else. I know it will because I said so.

Well, I wasn't talking about GD. I was talking about people. NR for instance. I apologize if I insult a band he likes because I don't want him to feel bad (not that he would, but people in my daily life definitely would, and do, so I try to keep myself in check.

I listen to plenty of things that plenty of people would find laughable. Being a snob is stupid and ultimately self-defeating.

[dead_battery]

is it even clear to the rest of you guys who gt is trying to troll and what he's trying to say because it rarely is to me. he doesnt seem to realize who said what and just picks someone at random to try and insult

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

is it even clear to the rest of you guys who gt is trying to troll and what he's trying to say because it rarely is to me. he doesnt seem to realize who said what and just picks someone at random to try and insult

i get genteel death yo

[Rob Instigator]

God money let's go dancing on the backs of the bruised....

[Severian]

If you're digging into early NIN, don't forget the remix albums Further Down the Spiral and Fixed. They're some so-so material on both, but the massive swarming "Reptile" remix "Reptilian" from FDTS, and the "Piggy" guitar remix with Dave Navarro (seriously.) are not to be missed.

Fixed is one of the heaviest techno releases of the era. So much noise.

[Peterpuff]

NIN are integral part of my musical development, for sure. I was late jr. high when Downward Spiral came out. They were one of those bands where the older brother of a friend said at the time, "Oh, you are liking that album? Check out some of the earlier work..." Broken kicked my ass in it's intensity, and the bass line of Sanctified alone grabbed me hook, line, and sinker (still one of the sexiest simple lines ever). I dug them instantly after hearing those albums, which was pretty much also my introduction to anything "electronic". They also opened the path to many other things like Ministry and Massive Attack and such.

March of the Pigs blew my mind at that age. I was just starting to "get into" music, was starting guitar, in the school orchestra, etc... And I remember seeing something on TV with him explaining the 7/8 time signature, and how his philosophy behind that was a constant feeling of being propelled forward by lacking that resolving beat, juxtaposed with the mellow 4/4 parts. Blew my young little mind that is for sure. (so much so I still actually remember it). The one-take video of a live performance really got me off too. I really thought that was totally badass. I think it was the very first "official release" video showing an actual live song performance I ever saw, now that I think of it.

I was just a little too young for mom to let me go to the NIN/Manson/Jim Rose tour, but all the older brothers could not stop talking about it and how awesome it was afterwards, ha.

I do think they are one of those bands that people find easy to write off though, which I have always found a little sad. Sure, his lyrics can get a little whiny and emo at times, but musically I have always been impressed.

The Fragile is brilliance. A very, very, very overlooked album, imo.

I have been lucky enough to have seen them for Fragile, With Teeth, and The Slip tours, and I will say HANDS DOWN, that those NIN shows have been some of the most impressive visual experiences I have ever witnessed.

I am kind of jealous of the idea of going back and experiencing the earlier stuff today with an unfamiliar ear. I would imagine it actually holds up quite well...

[Peterpuff]

Originally Posted by Severian

and the "Piggy" guitar remix with Dave Navarro (seriously.) are not to be missed.

Ha, this "(seriously.)" made me chuckle. Another guitarist people love to hate, but I'm sorry, one can not listen to the solo of Three Days and deny the guy's serious talent. I will always feel that is one of the best solos in guitar history.

(not to mention one of the other sexiest simple bass lines in existence)

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Peterpuff

NIN are integral part of my musical development, for sure. I was late jr. high when Downward Spiral came out. They were one of those bands where the older brother of a friend said at the time, "Oh, you are liking that album? Check out some of the earlier work..." Broken kicked my ass in it's intensity, and the bass line of Sanctified alone grabbed me hook, line, and sinker (still one of the sexiest simple lines ever). I dug them instantly after hearing those albums, which was pretty much also my introduction to anything "electronic". They also opened the path to many other things like Ministry and Massive Attack and such.

March of the Pigs blew my mind at that age. I was just starting to "get into" music, was starting guitar, in the school orchestra, etc... And I remember seeing something on TV with him explaining the 7/8 time signature, and how his philosophy behind that was a constant feeling of being propelled forward by lacking that resolving beat, juxtaposed with the mellow 4/4 parts. Blew my young little mind that is for sure. (so much so I still actually remember it). The one-take video of a live performance really got me off too. I really thought that was totally badass. I think it was the very first "official release" video showing an actual live song performance I ever saw, now that I think of it.

I was just a little too young for mom to let me go to the NIN/Manson/Jim Rose tour, but all the older brothers could not stop talking about it and how awesome it was afterwards, ha.

I do think they are one of those bands that people find easy to write off though, which I have always found a little sad. Sure, his lyrics can get a little whiny and emo at times, but musically I have always been impressed.

The Fragile is brilliance. A very, very, very overlooked album, imo.

I have been lucky enough to have seen them for Fragile, With Teeth, and The Slip tours, and I will say HANDS DOWN, that those NIN shows have been some of the most impressive visual experiences I have ever witnessed.

I am kind of jealous of the idea of going back and experiencing the earlier stuff today with an unfamiliar ear. I would imagine it actually holds up quite well...

Wow. Your experience with NIN is so similar to my own that, for a moment, I actually suspected you of trolling me, digging up one of my older posts, and copying it as some kind of really lame insult.

I started going to concerts when I was very young (8, 9 years old), so I was lucky enough to catch NIN with Bowie as I mentioned previously. My parents were pretty unconcerned about that kind of thing, and trusted me to think for myself (though in fairness, neither has ever seen the "Pinion" or "Happiness in Slavery" videos... Can't imagine they would have been nuts about me going to see NIN after watching either of those.

I too was introduced to NIN through my really close friend's older brother, and his group of stoner buddies. "March of the Pigs" was one of the first songs by NIN that really hit me too. And I don't think it would have had the impact it did without the little snippets of beauty tossed in the grinder with all the madness. For a song and video that frequented MTV and radio, that's a real fucking thrasher. Just loud as hell.

For a time, I actually preferred NIN to Nirvana. This was in'95, maybe '96... I was looking for a replacement Kurt, and NIN and Beck kind of filled the void together for a while. I always preferred NIN to Manson, and I think one of the main reasons for this was my own music education. I played several instruments in band, and was interested in theory from a pretty young age. I just really loved the symphonic elements of the music, the complicated time signatures and dynamic shifts that went beyond "loud-soft-loud" and into something totally different, where the quietest and softest moments could be the most sinister and "heavy," and where there were multiple dimensions upon which to gauge and measure the different sections. The drumming on "Piggy" drove me NUTS for a while when I was younger. I didn't understand how anyone could play like that, fall in and out of time like that, and have it sound so effortlessly good. Little did I know that was more Trent's programming than anything else (to this day I'm not sure if a human being had anything to do with actually generating those sounds, but if so, it was all manipulated to hell).

I waited for The Fragile for what felt like a decade. I dug into everything related to NIN and Nothing... Got into Ministry and (briefly) KMFDM, Pigface, PIG, Atsri Teenage Riot, etc. all the time waiting for some new NIN. When The Fragile finally did drop, I think I would have been disappointed if I hadn't had OK Computer to compare it to. I would have wanted it to be heavier, more punchy and direct... But Radiohead and Pink Floyd (and by that time Sonic Youth) had kinda taught me how to listen to more complicated music.

I still think "We're in this together" and "Starfuckers, Inc." are two of Reznor's worst songs, but "Into the Void" was a single worthy of the NIN legacy of ass kicking disco numbers that are systematically vaporized by the time they end.

Also, "La Mer" is one of my favorite NIN songs ever, still.

Yeah, people write them off and still do, despite Trent "proving himself" to be a "serious musician" by winning that Oscar. But they helped shape my entire musical philosophy. Like Nirvana, Sonic Youth, Radiohead, The Beatles, Aphex Twin... The Downward Spiral was one of the most important albums of my youth, and ultimately, my life. Great stuff, truly. Though it's a little bittersweet to listen to it now.

[Severian]

Btw, I know the Fragile fell flat after d buying at no. 1, but didn't it win a Grammy? Best alt. Performance? Or did Tori Amos snag that one.

[pepper_green]

I thought for sure this thread would have faded. esp. after I get to trolling and insulting which provides me with embarrassment and guilt which leads to fuel to leave this place for a while to do something productive and get things done.

as far as NINs go....the noise isn't loud enough mixed with overly dramatic opera that's aesthetically made for the 80's and fortunately dated by the time it reached the mainstream 90's for mass consumption.

NINs equals Depeche Mode to the Extreme. with naïve grunge kids as followers.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

I thought for sure this thread would have faded. esp. after I get to trolling and insulting which provides me with embarrassment and guilt which leads to fuel to leave this place for a while to do something productive and get things done.

as far as NINs go....the noise isn't loud enough mixed with overly dramatic opera that's aesthetically made for the 80's and fortunately dated by the time it reached the mainstream 90's for mass consumption.

NINs equals Depeche Mode to the Extreme. with naïve grunge kids as followers.

I think Pretty Hate Machine sounds dated, sure. But it's GLORIOUSLY dates, like Joy Division's Closer, or ... I don't know.. Disintegration. Jesus, even fucking Psychocandy. Yeah, it sounds '80s, but so do most of my favorite rock groups. The '80s were the decade for folks like us. "Us" referring to... well... fans of '80s underground, left-of-the-dial rock. Ain't nothing wrong with '80s music.

But I don't think Trent's '90s music sounds '80s. "Closer" is quintessential '90s, in fact. And the rest of that album sounds better and more alive than a fair amount of the disco-death rock from the disco-death revival era. Some of which I like quite a bit (LCD Soundsystem, Holy Fuck).

And I don't know man. Nothing after that really resembles '80s pop at all. But you're entitled to your opinion and all, of course.

Frankly I think NIN has found a niche with the meta-hipster crowd. A lot of indie groups from the last decade or so have name-checked NIN as an influence. There's shades of TDS in Deerhunter's Cryptograms. In My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. In a lot of shit.

Look at it this way... Trent could have aged like Marilyn Manson... dwindling so deeply into complete obscurity and "what the fuck were we thinking" status that a veritable comeback album with a very deliberate "adult rebranding" was necessary just for MM to save a little face.
Worse yet, he could have aged like Billy fucking Corgan, who really DID make lite noise slathered in Boston power chords, and is now perhaps one of the least respected men in the music world.

Instead, he pumped out more albums in the '00s than he did in the '80s and '90s combined. And then he started scoring films to almost unanimous acclaim. The NIN legacy is in much better shape than that of any of his peers (see Jane's Addiction, Soundgarden, Filter) ... Just sayin'

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

I thought for sure this thread would have faded. esp. after I get to trolling and insulting which provides me with embarrassment and guilt which leads to fuel to leave this place for a while to do something productive and get things done.

as far as NINs go....the noise isn't loud enough mixed with overly dramatic opera that's aesthetically made for the 80's and fortunately dated by the time it reached the mainstream 90's for mass consumption.

NINs equals Depeche Mode to the Extreme. with naïve grunge kids as followers.

this is by far the most lucid and sophisticated hot take you have posted possibly ever.

[Peterpuff]

Originally Posted by Severian

I was looking for a replacement Kurt, and NIN and Beck kind of filled the void together for a while.

Interesting way to phrase it. I never thought about the music I discovered around that time as a "replacement," but it's kind of true that's what a lot of it was. I just remember it being such an enjoyable open-minded time in music with so many genres starting to blend and pull from one another, (or maybe that is just how my impressionable teen mind felt about it all at the time). I went apeshit for Beck at the time too. I remember listening to the Loser single (which had about 5 or so songs) over and over long before Mellow Gold even released, just losing my shit over the combination of everything I was falling in love with at the time. That early Soul Sucking Jerk just had such a good groove. All these new styles and types of music combined into the freakish little CD, just, so damn good. It wet my appetite like no other. Other than In Utero, I think Mellow Gold was one of the first albums I just could not wait for it's release.

I mean, hell, it was that post Kurt exploration that led me to Sonic Youth. I hate to have to say I am one of those kids from that time, but I am (/raises hand as one of Pepper's "naive grunge kid followers"). Reading Nirvana's bios completely led me to check SY out, especially after seeing 100% on late-night MTV.

Back on main topic though...I know this might sound odd, but as a graphical person, NIN was one of the first bands that peaked my interest in "branding" as well. I just thought the logo was one of the coolest things ever, and my obsession with their branding and image was almost as strong as my enjoyment of their music.

So, out of curiosity, what are everyone's thoughts on How to Destroy Angels then? I was hesitant to embrace, for reason I not even sure. But I actually think that project's work is really solid too, personally.

[Severian]

I think NIN is a little more than DM^extreme. As a "band" they're a good deal less "extreme" than Depeche Mode in many ways, really. I mean, Depeche Mode has been quite over the top at various points in their career. Remember Violator? Also, I think NIN's sound is actually more varied and expansive, as DM has really pretty much stuck with the same formula for almost all of their career.

Nothing against Depeche Mode, of course. I just think Trent is musically — if not lyrically... (but maybe also lyrically) — quite a bit more sophisticated in the grand scheme of things.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Peterpuff

Interesting way to phrase it. I never thought about the music I discovered around that time as a "replacement," but it's kind of true that's what a lot of it was. I just remember it being such an enjoyable open-minded time in music with so many genres starting to blend and pull from one another, (or maybe that is just how my impressionable teen mind felt about it all at the time). I went apeshit for Beck at the time too. I remember listening to the Loser single (which had about 5 or so songs) over and over long before Mellow Gold even released, just losing my shit over the combination of everything I was falling in love with at the time. That early Soul Sucking Jerk just had such a good groove. All these new styles and types of music combined into the freakish little CD, just, so damn good. It wet my appetite like no other. Other than In Utero, I think Mellow Gold was one of the first albums I just could not wait for it's release.

I mean, hell, it was that post Kurt exploration that led me to Sonic Youth. I hate to have to say I am one of those kids from that time, but I am (/raises hand as one of Pepper's "naive grunge kid followers"). Reading Nirvana's bios completely led me to check SY out, especially after seeing 100% on late-night MTV.

Back on main topic though...I know this might sound odd, but as a graphical person, NIN was one of the first bands that peaked my interest in "branding" as well. I just thought the logo was one of the coolest things ever, and my obsession with their branding and image was almost as strong as my enjoyment of their music.

SAME!

 

Once again, I can completely relate. I didn't get really into Beck until I heard the "Where It's At" single though. I loved Mellow Gold, but some part of me was convinced he was going to be a novelty. I think the first hint that this wasn't the case was when I heard "Soul Sucking Jerk" and "Pay No Mind" for the first time (yeah, I got into Beck post-Loser... shrug), but when that ridiculous video for "Where it's at" premiered, I was just hooked. It was another killer single, infectious as hell, but I could hear bits and pieces of other artists I was growing to love at the time (Beastie Boys, Blur, Tom Waits) and when Odelay came out I was just blown away. I listened to that album more than anything else that year I think.

Anyway, yeah, about the branding thing, I totally TOTALLY get that. I actually hate the whole idea of branding, but I love really good logos, and I love great band names, and I love it when artists use signifiers that span their career. I remember being kind of fascinated by the whole "Halo 1... Halo 2" business. And by fonts and logos for the Nothing. It made me feel a bit like I was living in the 1960s, witnessing that lovely Beatles typeface pop up on those records, and seeing the birth of Apple Records (another example of great, simple, elegant branding).

I went a bit mad for it in fact. I had plenty of NIN shirts, but instead of getting the more flashy ones that depicted the Downward Spiral sea shell, or the weird vertebrae on the PHM cover, I always went for the understated ones, with either a simple lower case "n" (a la Broken) or the boxed in NIN acronym on a solid background. Half the time the logo was so small or muted or subtle that I'm sure people just thought I was wearing a plain shirt. But I've always preferred neat, classy branding to flashy, over the top shit. Maybe it made me feel like I was part of a secret club... a country spanning sub-culture of techy, bespectacled nerdos who were all in on the same joke. Because even though NIN became quite huge in the '90s, they were still a bit weird for the average kid I high school to get into. Yeah, teens of all varieties would sing along with "Closer", but a lot of them would also mumble about the song being "perverted." And Trent was not immune to the homophobic insults that Marilyn Manson eventually found himself on the receiving end of. What with the black mini-skirts, the occasional lace-up boots, the eye-liner that he rocked during the TDS tour. But I knew I was with like-minded individuals when someone said "nice shirt" ... because in order to even know it was a NIN shirt (grey logo on black, usually in small typeface), it would almost have to be a fellow NIN appreciator. Or so I told myself.

It really was a winning logo. I read as much as I could about Trent and NIN back in the day, and in one unofficial biography (not sure if there's an official one yet, but at the time this was all I could get my hands on) and reading about Trent coming up with the name. There were all these phalic meaning people were trying to attach to it, or S&M related messages, but turns out it didn't mean a goddamn thing. He just liked the way it looked on paper, liked how clean the acronym looked. Thought it was kind of elemental, which it was/is. It's like the Batman shield of rock logos. Everyone knows what it means, fan or not, old or young, 1987 to 2016. So yeah, it was a quietly, subtly brilliant marketing decision... there seemed to be all these deeper meanings in the words he chose, and the Halo business. The logo, at the end of the day, almost looks like a single cryptographic character. Something NIN had in common with my other electronic hero of that era, Richard D. James, and the multi-platform use of the Aphex Twin logo.

Re: How to Destroy Angels - I never got into it. Which is weird. I mean, I bought the QUAKE video game JUST because Trent did the "soundtrack." I didn't give two shits about playing the thing, and only did so to hear the sounds he came up with. So you'd think I wouldn't be able to resist a Trent collab, even in my thirties. But I didn't care for the singles I heard, and I didn't like the associations the project was getting (Spotify and such will have you believe it's an A Perfect Circle-esque project... which it may have been to some extent, but APC was so terrible — they actually opened for NIN when I saw them your behind the Fragile, and oi, what a fucking shitfest — and as much as I do enjoy NIN and Trent's collabs with Atticus Ross, I just didn't particularly enjoy the sound or premise of this group.

If it had ended up sounding like the "Immigrant Song" cover he and Ross did with Karen O for The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, I would have been all for it, because that kicked unholy ass. But to my ears at the time, it seemed to have more in common with... I don't know... Evanescence or some shit.

Admittedly, I haven't heard a note of HTDA in years now, so maybe it deserves another listen.

[Severian]

And when I said I was looking for a replacement for Kurt, that's thirty-something me talking. I don't think I actually consciously felt that way at the time. But it was quite a jolt to have the singer of your favorite band kill himself, as I'm sure we all remember. Looking back, I think it definitely left a void that I — knowingly or unknowingly — tried to fill. I was starting to crave more eclectic and interesting sounds in the music I listened to, but I guess I also missed that sheer idiotic idolatry for a relatable, honest musician after Kurt's death, I think I grabbed a little bit from column A (NIN) and a little bit from column B (Beck) and kinda ... Let's see, how to put this... shoved them up my Kurt-hole.

Really, though, it worked for a time. Beck had just enough of that sardonic, intellectual freak with a guitar vibe, and Trent had just enough of that unbridled angst, and it worked.

It was until I started listening to Sonic Youth more (who ultimately filled the void permanently, giving me more than even Nirvana ever had) that I really got over Nirvana, if it can even be said that I have gotten over them to this day.
Also going to Modest Mouse shows changed things up. They were my little replacement Nirvana for a spell in my teens. Getting into the Replacements, the Pixies and Dino (first wave of '80s college radio bands I really fell for, not counting SY, since they weren't really *anything* "radio") helped as well, because all these bands had so much of what I loved about Nirvana going on, plus quite a bit more. They were also, y'know... still alive, and didn't act as a constant reminder of the loss of Kurt.

Of course, looking back, it's ridiculous that I placed so much faith and hope in a band, even after their singer committed suicide. But I was young, and young kids do stupid shit. Idolatry is lame.

But yeah, NIN.

[pepper_green]

dude. every time I scroll down a page that Severian has made his place in I feel like popping up some popcorn. long post. entertaining yes. long though.

where do you type this and how many words can you type a minute? do you just spew it out with no effort at all at work or something?

[Severian]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

dude. every time I scroll down a page that Severian has made his place in I feel like popping up some popcorn. long post. entertaining yes. long though.

where do you type this and how many words can you type a minute? do you just spew it out with no effort at all at work or something?

Honestly? yes. Little to no effort... certainly not something I proofread or fact check, hence the errors. I just swipe on my phone and set my thumbs free.

I do it deliberately, though. I don't much time to write about whatever pops into my head for the fuck of it, but I know that doing that kind of writing on a daily basis can have a profound effect on productivity and resourcefulness. I use the SYG the way some dipshit assholes use writing prompt apps and dream journals.

And yeah most of it is done at work. I'm fortunate to be in a profession that allows me to write almost constantly, but a lot of the writing I do at work is pretty soulless. Have you ever written press releases before, G? It's fucking tedious. Ever proofed and edited freelance submissions? Yikes. I consider it my right to take breaks for this shit, especially since it keeps me from hating my job.

I know I have a shitload of room for improvement with my writing, and I think just going apeshit on a topic you know about can make you a better writer all around.
Sorry it's long (kinda... not really). Glad you find it entertaining (really). It's an entirely selfish endeavor.

[pepper_green]

phone? I thought you were locked up in a cubical like everyone else I imagine posting during the day. I got a new smart phone but I just answer it. say hello and bye. maybe a little text here and there. apps don't interest me at all. I just play records and watch the sunset and hang out on the PC. stuck in 2006.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

phone? I thought you were locked up in a cubical like everyone else I imagine posting during the day. I got a new smart phone but I just answer it. say hello and bye. maybe a little text here and there. apps don't interest me at all. I just play records and watch the sunset and hang out on the PC. stuck in 2006.

Yeah, actually almost all of my web browsing is done on my phone or my iPad these days. And I am stuck in an office for most of the day, but I get to run out in the sweltering heat and take pictures of things and interview people too.