[golden child]

Originally Posted by Dead-Air

Cool! Where'd you see Crank Sturgeon at? He stayed in my house and played on my radio show here in Portland. Such a nice guy. My dad probably wouldn't get too into CS's music, but I'd be happy to have him and my dad over for dinner together.

i saw em in eugene, ive put out a tape of cranks and been in marginal email contact but this was the first time id seen him play or met him. big fan. ive seen pcrv a few times now, and i gotta say that his recordings that i have far outweigh anytime ive seen him live. my dad acually wasnt there, he was across the street, but he has been to many a noise show. he is not a fan per se but he thinks its cool i guess.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by Blatherskite

You just said rock and roll was invented. It wasn't invented by a particular person like one would invent a... trash thingy... or something... but it came from human imagination. Ditto the "concept" of the teenager (which really IS the teenager).

If you want to put "exact English" to it (which is something that rock and roll is definitely NOT about, but I'll oblige), then yeah, it was conceptualized over a number of years. Ditto teenagers, but generally everybody can agree that both came to the apex at around the same time and both were so in tangent with each other that it couldn't POSSIBLY have been coincidence that teenagers were suddenly "going wild." Spendable incomes, raging hormones, repressed society (including hits like "Can I have that doggy in the window?"), and a general bad attitude towards getting grounded all contributed, of course... but come on.

Do you expect me to believe the premise for one second that rock and roll could have possibly gotten popular without these raging high school crazies? On the other side of things were veterans who didn't want to hear such stuff and horrible horrible racists.

There just wasn't a moment in time when rock 'n' roll 'happened', and when I say it wasn't 'invented', I mean that it came from various sources (in particular, r&b, jazz and country) and was actually nothing new. For an example, listen to what Wynonie Harris was doing in the 1940's: rock 'n' roll in all but name. And add to that Louis Jordan, Big Joe Turner, and a host of other black artists.

More relevant was the affluence you mentioned. It's a myth that teens didn't rebel until that point, and a myth that music wasn't a form of rebellion. An understanding of the history of jazz will tell you that parents were outraged by this form of music decades before the term rock 'n' roll was used.

Affluence meant more people had access to television and so parents could see these outrageous artists, children had more money and so could afford their own clothes, and could afford to buy more records and what we now call 'merchandise'.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by Blatherskite

Agreed, Pookie. But I think Rock and Roll did happen when it was recognized and coined by a DJ. That's when it was thought that it could be marketed to teens with money on their hands. I know jazz was thought to be Satanic for a time, but there was also a jazz era where it was pretty well accepted in high society and all that.

Before the term was coined, it was really R & B and sped up blues. Muddy was rockin' before the idea of rock and roll was out and is a perfect example. I still think, though, that rock and roll was put out and marketed purely for rebellion when it was out. I don' think it was any intention in any point in the history of jazz to be rebellious.

I think we've come to a point of agreement. That the major difference during this period was marketing, which resulted largely from affluence.

The term rock 'n' roll, incidentally was used way before the 50's. Rock, roll, jazz and many other terms were just words for sex. And the terms were often misunderstood by white audiences. Rocking was having sex, rolling was having sex, so to rock and roll...(I have a few pre-1950's songs which use the expression rock and roll, but I can't think of them off the top of my head).

Interestingly, Nick Tosches has suggested that rock n roll as rebellion ended when Elvis recorded Milk Cow Blues Boogie (1955/6?) with it's phoney false start ("Hold it fellas, that don't move me. Let's get real, real gone for a change...").

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by Blatherskite

I HATE THAT FUCKING FALSE START. The only good thing about it is that it's proof that Elvis could make an ass of himself long before he started getting into the motion picture business (as his main business).

I was about 10 when I first listened to the Elvis Sun Sessions, and even at that tender age, I cringed every time I listened to that song.

I'd be interested to know who's idea it was. Sam Phillips would be a good bet I suppose.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by Blatherskite

I don' think it was any intention in any point in the history of jazz to be rebellious.

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

Jazz was never rebellious. All hail the new music messiah!

Your thinking is about as deep as a speed bump. And each of you betray a firm foundation of musical ignorance with your unintentionally revealing jibber-jabber.

Um, when Charlie Parker said "fuck you" to the notes on the sheet in front of him and blew free on "Cherokee" in 1939...

Originally Posted by wiki

By now, Parker was emerging as a leading figure in the nascent bebop scene. According to an interview Parker gave in the 1950s, one night in 1939, he was playing "Cherokee" in a jam session with guitarist William 'Biddy' Fleet when he hit upon a method for developing his solos that enabled him to play what he had been hearing in his head for some time, by building on the chords' extended intervals, such as ninths, elevenths, and thirteenths.
Early in its development, this new type of jazz was rejected and disdained by many older, more established jazz musicians, whom the beboppers in response called 'moldy figs'.

...that was the first great act of rebellion. There have been countless others acts of rebellion by countless jazz musicians since as the music was pushed forward.
(which it did...up until the fusion sell-out(s) in the '70s)

Now there we other influences to be sure (Abstract Expressionist painting, early Rock 'n' Roll), but it was primarily the Hard Bop of the '50s and '60s that gave rise to the beatniks. The activisists wtihin the beatnik subculture along with the early civil rights leaders, helped spawn the civil rights movement. The counter-culture hippie generation followed suit and so forth...

It was also jazz music that first found a lot of artists (nearly all of them immigrants or otherwise minorities) putting out their own records, and forming musical communities. The conscientious artist-friendly labels like Blue Note led the charge. Blues and Jazz musicians invented the DIY aesthetic long before garage bands.

One of the reasons marijuana was outlawed in the United States is because of the popularity of early jazz.
Lawmakers feared their white women might venture into a jazz club and get stoned and sleep with a black man.
Jazz, although it has some roots in the blues (music borne of slavery and by those of the lowest possible rung of society), is an original musical art form. As any idiot should know, "new" and "original," by nature, often spells T-R-O-U-B-L-E.
By the time jazz started to spawn a a solid subculture, it became a "rebellious threat" to be sure.

[atari 2600]

blah

go ahead...

resume your bleeting...

excuse me for reading meaning into your poop

it's just that words do have meaning and if you were a thinking person you would know all the inferences before you choose your words.

& anyway, are you kids?

what's the preoccupation with "parents?"
A battle of the generations seems to be the underlying theme.

I used to be With IT. But then they changed what IT was. Now what I'm with isn't IT, and what's IT seems scary and weird. It'll happen to YOU." -- Abe Simpson

I think too many young people going through an Identity Formative stage psychologically are too concerned with weirding-out others as a self-defense mechanism, and thus opt for harsh musics (& extreme everthing else) maybe just a wee bit too exclusively as a result. It's a bit like the goth girl with the heavy makeup or the jackass with green hair syndrome as the confused and frightened one becomes completely consumed with a hipper-than-thou "fuck you" image and persona, i.e., mask. However, in the case of the internet user, similar behavior may, of course, also manifest as a repressed personality or fantasy identity owing to the anonymous nature of the medium.

[Dead-Air]

Originally Posted by golden child

i saw em in eugene, ive put out a tape of cranks and been in marginal email contact but this was the first time id seen him play or met him. big fan. ive seen pcrv a few times now, and i gotta say that his recordings that i have far outweigh anytime ive seen him live. my dad acually wasnt there, he was across the street, but he has been to many a noise show. he is not a fan per se but he thinks its cool i guess.

Cool. You can still download my radio show with their collaboration and the interview HERE.

[golden child]

awesome! ill check it out.

and to all you people arguing that jazz is/wasnt rebellious... you are fucking morons. all i gotta say.

[krastian]

Pretty much.

[Norma J]

Originally Posted by screamingskull

wow reading this makes me think "man, i have kool parents!" my parents are way kooler than i am.

Yeah. My parents are cool. They don't give a shit what I listen to. They didn't when I was a teen either. Well perhaps they did, but they were never ones to restrict. They're both got good musical tastes anyways.

[SonicSam]

Originally Posted by afterthefact

punk rock used to be good for teenagers to blast intheir bedrooms to piss off their parents. Now that that same music is being used in car commericals and kid movies, they need something else. And noise fills that gap.

not quite. Only like 0.000001% of punk is commercial.There is still PLENTY of good stuff. Theres so many people people who got jaded, especially with hardcore and think that it got shit after black flag and minor threat - its not true!

[sonicl]

Punk was heralded as being the music that saved the world from the likes of Genesis and Yes by showing that you didn't have to be a virtuoso musician to make music, anyone could pick a guitar, learn a chord and start to play.

Noise has taken this one step further, and any fool can now use any means to make some sort of din and claim it's meant to sound like that because it's "noise music". The noise market may once have been interesting and creative, now it's filled with too many talentless idiots who think that because they're upsetting someone their musical expression must be valid. The genre needs to be driven back underground for its own good.

By the way, I'm not a fan of noise music.

[Toilet & Bowels]

so which noise is infantile and which isn't?

[jon boy]

sudden infant.

[Toilet & Bowels]

sudden infant are a bit rubbish

[Toilet & Bowels]

should i go and see wolf eyes tonight? (bare in mind that i've seen them 6 times already)

[jon boy]

yeah saw sudden infant in berlin and wasnt that impressed.

as for wolf eyes, depends how you feel really. anyway i thought you had work to do?

[Toilet & Bowels]

i've got enough time to go and see wolf eyes, but i can't make up my mind how i feel about it.

[jon boy]

i am sure it will become clear in the next few hours. but back to your question. which noise is not childish and which is?

[sonicl]

T&B - did Wolf Eyes offer enough of a new experience on each of the previous viewings that you think you'll get something new again out of seeing them a seventh time? If yes, then, yes, you should go and see them again.