[Rob Instigator]

I think the guy who made the cans full of his own feces is worthy of far more praise than someone who recreated their bed in a gallery.


MANZONI's MERDA de ARTISTA (artist's shit)

 

 

[Florya]

Originally Posted by floatingslowly

Florya, are you Lethrneck4 or do you just share the exact same "Atari says:" sig style?

not that I REALLY care......just wondering because the resemblance is uncanny.

No I'm not 'Letherneck4' - I used to be Bloodbeach85 on the other board.

[Savage Clone]

The best part about the canned shit is that it was priced at its weight in gold.

[Florya]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

The opposite is true, I'm afraid. In fact if it wasn't because there isn't always time, I'd tend to check out as many works of art as I could. That hardly qualifies as the point of view of a narrow minded person, unless you want to argue otherwise.

Checking out as many works of art as possible will not neccessarily change your views on what you think is, or is not, art.

I would never accuse you of being narrow minded porky!
Having a narrow view on certain subjects isn't the same thing.

I could argue with you 'til the cows came home, but I don't think it would serve much purpose apart from increasing my carbon footprint.

My carbon footprint is a work of art by the way - you can't see it, but I made it and it has the potential to affect the lives of far more people than a Mark Rothko 'painting'

Originally Posted by Florya

Checking out as many works of art as possible will not neccessarily change your views on what you think is, or is not, art.

I would never accuse you of being narrow minded porky!
Having a narrow view on certain subjects isn't the same thing.

I could argue with you 'til the cows came home, but I don't think it would serve much purpose apart from increasing my carbon footprint.

My carbon footprint is a work of art by the way - you can't see it, but I made it and it has the potential to affect the lives of far more people than a Mark Rothko 'painting'

I'm not even answering that.



^^arT??????????

[Florya]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

I'm not even answering that.



^^arT??????????

So I can assume that I won the argument?

Makes a change!

Originally Posted by Florya

So I can assume that I won the argument?

Makes a change!

Of course you have. And the words that you are slowly reading on this post are in no way the product of rampant sarcasm but my inner self producing an earth-shattering work of art, innit?

What does anyone think of this talented young man's art, then?

 

Meet Sylvester Stallone, the artist. He is not alone...

What is more surprising: that Sylvester Stallone had his first exhibition at a Beverly Hills art gallery in January or that someone was willing to pay $15.000 for his portrait of Marilyn Monroe? The fact that the exhibition was rumoured to make nearly $1 million says as much about the perceived value of celebrity artwork as it does about the celebrities themselves. Stallone is already very rich and successful movie star, but obviously feels a need to satisfy a creative hunger. At a recent exhibition in New York, several prints were auctioned to the public to raise money for charity. The artists included James Dean, Charles Bronson and David Bowie. At $ 1,300, Dean´s print raised the most money. Bowie´s at $ 500, the least. No one was allowed to photograph Dean´s work; Bowie appeared in various magazines, standing in front of what he refers to as his 'expressionist' paintings with a grin on his face. The exhibition in question was called 'Twice Gifted', a reference to celebrity artists who are more famous for work in other areas. But how gifted are these personalities and to what extent do they take advantage of the fame they already have? A host of pop stars attended art school before breaking in music, from Bowie, Ron Wood and Syd Barrettto Frazier Chorus, Talking Heads and Marc Almond, but not all of them exploited or are exploiting their fame to draw attention to their artwork. Stone Roses fans treasure the band´s Jackson Pollock-style record covers, but guitarist / sleeve designer John Squire denies being an artist. Time Out art critic Sarah Kent and Art Line editor Mike von Joel have cast a critical eye over the artwork, not always guessing the artist´s identity and not pausing to consider their celebrity status before drawing conclusions. Judging by their comments, it´s obvious that some celebrities shouldn´t give up their day jobs just yet.

[nick2767]

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

The best part about the canned shit is that it was priced at its weight in gold.

Although over the years, the value of the tins have performed much better than the price of gold. A tin was sold at auction in Milan earlier this year for £84000.

And as you've probably recently read, the tins weren't filled with his excrement but with plaster.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by demonrail666 (topic starter)

Bed is a far more conservative piece than Duchamp's, which questioned what could be permitted as art. Emin came along after that battle had largely already been won. Her piece is 'allowed' because of the earlier acceptance of his work, and that of Warhol, etc.) but uses it to return to a far more romantic view of the artist-as-social-outsider.

As such I always think that Bed has more in common with Van Gogh's (admittedly superior) Chair.

Really now? Van Gogh's chair?

 

Robert Rauschenberg. Bed, 1955.
Combine painting
6'2" x 31 1/2" x 6 1/2"
Collection of Mr. and Mrs. Leo Castelli, New York

Following the charge of Duchamp (also Picasso's Still Life with Chair Caning (everyone always forgets that specific one)) and in the wake of Abstract Expressionism, Robert Rauschenberg created several famous works (Bed, Monogram, Canyon, Coca-Cola Plan, etc.) in a "combine" style in which ordinary and found objects challenged the viewer's notion of what the picture plane is "supposed" to be and consist of.

 

Dylaby, 1962

And Rauschenberg directly asked the question in the early seventies with his series of cardboard "wall sculptures."

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Jeff Wall. The Destroyed Room, 1978
Transparency in lightbox 1590 x 2340 mm
National Gallery of Canada, Ottawa. Purchased 1988
Cinematographic photograph
Wall echoes Delacroix's composition (The Death of Sardanapalus, 1827-8), with its central sweeping diagonal and sumptuous palette of blood reds, while acknowledging its staged atmosphere by re-composing the scene as a roughly fabricated stage-set, (only in this case) absent of any players. 'Through the door you can see that it's only a set held up by supports, that this is not a real space, this is no-one's house,' he has commented. Though clearly a woman's bedroom, the cause of the violence is unexplained, leaving the viewer to speculate on the sequence of events.

While I don't feel Jeff Wall's work is all that incredible (and it's certainly not as revolutionary as Duchamp, Picasso, Warhol or Rauschenberg), its derivation and purpose is valid nonetheless. And the folks at the Tate Modern think the same.

[atari 2600]

Many feel, myself included, that contemporary conceptual art installations have taken things too far, pushing the envelope merely for the sake of pushing the envelope. And many are starting to feel that the envelope has now broken. A case in point, Ms. Tracy Emin, our topic subject from agent provocateur Mr. demon-boy number-of-the-beast.

article follows:
Gallery boss sparks concept art row

In the frame: Tracey Emin shows off a painting

 

A row among the art world has been ignited by Ivan Massow, head of the Institute of Contemporary Arts, who said most conceptual art was "pretentious, self-indulgent, craftless tat".
His comments that former Turner Prize nominee Tracey Emin was unable to "think her way out of a paper bag" prompted on her to call for his resignation.
She told the BBC: "For someone who couldn't think her way out of a paper bag, from my background, I've done pretty well, thank you."
Artists like Emin and Turner Prize winner Damien Hirst have become some of the most famous living artists in the country through a shocking and unconventional approach.

Emin's My Bed caused a storm when it went on show

 

Mr. Massow wrote in the New Statesman magazine: "It is the product of over-indulged, middle class (barely concealed behind mockney accents), bloated egos who patronise real people with fake understanding."
The Stuckists, a group of artists who protest against what they see as the domination of conceptual art over more tradtional art - the Turner Prize in particular - leapt to Massow's defence.
The group's leader, Charles Thompson, said: "I think he's very courageous, saying this.
But Thompson added: "He's going to find himself out in the cold - there is a very strong establishment."

We were the child that said 'the Emperor has got no clothes' - and now some of the adults are agreeing with us
Charles Thompson, Stuckists

He said Mr Massow had clearly articulated the Stuckists' position.
"Essentially, that's our argument - that's exactly what we believe and have been saying for the last three years.
"We were the child that said 'the Emperor has got no clothes' - and now some of the adults are agreeing with us.
"When we said it initially, it was such a shock that anyone within the art establishment could say it," he added.


Mr Thompson said critics like the Stuckists and Mr Massow were "heretics, not pagans", and their views could not simply be brushed aside.
But while artists such as Emin were prepared to defend their work, galleries housing conceptual art were less forthcoming.
The Saatchi gallery, which Mr Massow described as one of the "crystal Kremlins" responsible for the dominance of conceptual art, declined to comment.
Tate Modern also did not wish to comment on Mr Massow's views.
A spokeswoman for the ICA told BBC News Online on Thursday that Mr Massow's views were unlikely to change the gallery's criteria towards the exhibitions it stages.
'Value'
She said she could not comment on how much influence Mr Massow had over what gets shown.
The ICA describes itself as "a public playground" for presenting and experimenting with new and challenging art and forging innovative ways of thinking about culture.
Daniele Dodd, one of the founders of the charity Salon Des Arts, which raises money to promote the arts, said she thought conceptual art was "great when the idea behind it has value".
"My problem with a lot of what people do is they think anything can go, but that's not true.
"People say: 'I'll do that because I like it' - but it's not a concept."
Morality
This is not the first time high-profile figures have disagreed about the merits of conceptual art - critics were divided over Martin Creed winning the Turner Prize with The Lights Going On and Off.
And in April the former mayor of New York, Rudolph Giuliani, set up a board to judge the morality of publicly funded art.
He created the decency commission in the wake of his disgust at recent exhibitions, including Turner Prize winner Chris Ofili's painting of the Virgin Mary engrained with elephant dung in 1999.

Daniele Dodd, one of the founders of the charity Salon Des Arts, which raises money to promote the arts, said she thought conceptual art was "great when the idea behind it has value".
"My problem with a lot of what people do is they think anything can go, but that's not true.
"People say: 'I'll do that because I like it' - but it's not a concept."


I can agree with that.

[atari 2600]

Me too.

Most recently, the faked bronzes of Suri Cruise's first poop and the bronze of Britney Spears giving birth on a bearskin rug by Daniel Edwards (who really knows how to spin his shock-schlock) have raised eyebrows.
http://www.caplakesting.com/2006_catalog/de/index.htm
Daniel Edwards has done other lesser-known works that deliberately court controversy like a nude bust of Hillary Clinton, & a "Paris Hilton autopsy."
http://www.caplakesting.com/danedwards/index.htm
and it's just one rogue gallery representing him.

Still, Daniel Edwards' art isn't completely awful. Some of it is a good as Jeff Koons, who also isn't a "great," but has done some great stuff. Personally, I feel Karen Kilimnik's treatment of celebrity is more in tune with a Warholian sensibility (yet, bear in mind, her works look nothing like a Warhol; she's also someone who can write on the picture plane successfully) and that, as important conceptual artists go, Lucas Samaras and Laurie Anderson are to be considered as well.

 

Young artists making a 'Sensation' in London

 

October 26, 1997
From Correspondent Hillary Bowker
LONDON (CNN) -- Britons are queuing up to view "Sensation," an exhibit at London's Royal Academy featuring the work of young British artists that most agree lives up to its name.
Although many of the featured artists have won international acclaim and fame, some critics say their brand of "shock art" fails to reach the creative heights attained by old masters.
Vincent Van Gogh, Claude Monet, Henri Matisse and Pablo Picasso were controversial in their time. Today, they are some of Europe's most famous and respected artists.
"They were controversial in a way that was slightly different to what we expect now," said David Lee, the editor of Art Review. "They were doing things which were very unusual, which did cause offense, which slapped the bourgeois in the face if you like. But they were doing it within the context of very clearly defined genres."

'Shock art' the newest style


By comparison, some critics say, most of the artwork in the "Sensation" collection seems designed purely to shock.
Take Damien Hirst's "A Thousand Years," in which a severed cow's head crawling with flies, maggots and reeking of decay is encased in a glass box. Another Hirst work displays a preserved pig sliced in half and rigged it to a mechanical soundtrack: "This little piggy went to market, this little piggy stayed home."
Artist Mat Collishaw's "Bullet Hole" reproduces a closeup shot of a bullet in the brain.
"The artists who are working today seem to be shocking deliberately," Lee said. "Instead of conventional genre and materials, one gets things which many people don't even recognize as art, and subjects which to many ordinary people are extremely offensive."
People are apparently eager to be shocked, offended or inspired by the "Sensation" exhibit; 3,000 visitors a day have attended the show, which features pieces from the Charles Saatchi collection.

Controversial 'Myra'


The painting "Myra" by Marcus Harvey has drawn the most attention. It reworks an infamous police photograph of child murderer Myra Hindley using acrylic paint and, as a brush, the plaster cast of a child's hand.
Last month, the portrait made news when protesters splattered it with ink and eggs. Three weeks later, after special restoration, it was back up, this time protected by glass and, when the museum is open, by guards.
"It was said at the time that this work was exploring and examining pedophelia and aspects of child abuse," Lee said. "It wasn't actually doing anything of the kind. It was merely exploiting a very famous image of a very infamous subject in order to advance the career of the artist."
Lee said such exhibits are becoming more common among artists, who correlate fame to the amount of press coverage they generate, often to the detriment of their long-term artistic impact. Lee compared today's works to advertising in that "you get the punchline and it's finished."
By contrast, he said, "great works of the past are works to which you can return time and time again. They renew themselves before your eyes. They're inexhaustible, and that's what makes them great."

Commercialization of art has roots in past


Lee concedes that some of the great artists of the past set a bad example for artists today.
"The precious behavior, humorous behavior of Picasso, Dali, Warhol has given a bad example for contemporary artists to follow," he says.
Most of Europe's famous artists have been richly rewarded for their works and strategies, Lee said. The only major exception was Van Gogh, of whom Lee says, "He simply killed himself too early."
"If he'd waited, he would have been within five years probably the most famous artist in the world."
In the art world today, fame and fortune go hand in hand. Lee says for an artist, selling yourself is as important as selling your work.
"It is said that the best way to become a good artist now is, as you leave artists college, employ the most expensive PR company you can afford," Lee said. "It's as cynical as that, I'm afraid."

Another brilliant example of conceptual art gone too far:


Artist causes London bomb scare gridlock

ALISON HARDIE SENIOR NEWS WRITER
A WOMAN claiming to be a "performance artist" was under arrest last night after a series of suspected nail bombs caused a major security alert in London.
Large parts of west London were brought to a standstill when the objects - apparently described later as art installations - were left at five locations in Hammersmith and Shepherd's Bush.

Roads were blocked by police and traffic ground to a standstill as the authorities sought to deal with what had at first appeared to be a major security alert.
At the same time a woman aged 36 went to a police station in the area and told officers she had strategically planted the "devices". She also told officers she was an artist.
Some of the packages were cardboard boxes containing soft toys and training shoes with nails sticking out of them.
The alarm they caused disrupted the journey of thousands commuting to work, who were panicked into thinking they were trapped at the scene of a terror attack on the scale of the 7 July bombings of the Underground network, which claimed the lives of 52 Londoners. Police rushed bomb squad officers to the scene and threw a large cordon around the area.
Four hours after the alarm was raised at 8am, at least two of the bizarre installations were still in place.
One, in Shepherd's Bush, consisted of three cardboard tubes supporting a polystyrene "altar" on which stood some flowers and a note apparently lamenting the loss of one "Pelagius".
It read: "Your absence has gone through us like thread through a needle. Everything we do is stitched with its colour."
Scotland Yard said that shortly after 8am, officers from Hammersmith and Fulham responded to calls about a number of suspicious packages. The area surrounding each one was cordoned off while the packages were examined. They were later given the all clear and roads which had been closed were reopened.
Despite the continued presence of two of the suspect objects at lunchtime yesterday, an hour after the alert was raised the Met was able to scale down their response after the woman went to police and claimed responsibility.
A police spokeswoman said: "Whilst officers were responding to the incidents a 36-year-old woman attended a west London police station.
"The woman who is from the Shepherd's Bush area and who described herself as an artist was then arrested on suspicion of causing a public nuisance and taken into custody where she remains."
The attempt at art by the 36-year-old woman was condemned by art experts yesterday.
Modern art historian Harriet Riches, of Warwick University, said: "There have been a number of outrageous attempts at art in the past but I cannot think of anything quite on this scale - considering the amount of resources that have been wasted and chaos caused.
"This was beyond the bounds of common sense.
"In 1971 there was an American street performer Chris Burden who got a collaborator to shoot at him to see the reaction of onlookers. Unfortunately he was hit in the arm and was quite seriously injured.
"Most of these stunts are driven by a personal cause or to self-publicise, but it seems they are getting out of hand - particularly with this latest incident."

[Florya]

WHAT THE FUCK IS AN 'ART EXPERT'??!!!

What special powers does she have that make her think that she has the ability to read a persons toughts and decide whether they are, or are not, a 'legitimate' artist?

That is something that I agree with you about, to an extent. There are a number of people who use and abuse their academic power at the expenses of some good artists out there. For all I know, Harriet Riches could be wrong in judging a lot of work that gets produced, but for every Riches there is a Sewell who tries to put everything into a clear context, as art does have a context in any society, like it or not.

[Crumb's Crunchy Delights]

Originally Posted by Florya

WHAT THE FUCK IS AN 'ART EXPERT'??!!!

What special powers does she have that make her think that she has the ability to read a persons toughts and decide whether they are, or are not, a 'legitimate' artist?

http://ww.sonicyouth.com/gossip/show...361#post401361

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Florya

What special powers does she have that make her think that she has the ability to read a persons toughts and decide whether they are, or are not, a 'legitimate' artist?

why are you sympathetic to these talentless time wasting attention seekers?

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I think the guy who made the cans full of his own feces is worthy of far more praise than someone who recreated their bed in a gallery.


MANZONI's MERDA de ARTISTA (artist's shit)

 

 

There is some irony inside this piece of shit. The idea came to Piero Manzoni from his father's comment on his art being the work of a 'shitty artist'. This was caused by the fact that his father was the owner of the factory that produced 'Manzotin' (see what I've done there?), a type of canned meat that is popular in Italy at lunchtime or for dinner. His father's comment was brought up by the fact that Piero refused to work for his factory and wanted to concentrate on his artistic 'skills'.