[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by Glice

Yeah, I did that old trick of bending facts to make my point with the COUM thing, and you're right about the 'public arts' bit as well. Still, who's to let a few niggling facts get in the way of a good point, eh?

I'd never thought about putting Adorno into that argument (it's a recurring theme of mine) so thanks. I shan't be using Adorno, but he'll at least be considered. I have a cardinal rule about Adorno - so long as I continue to pretend I know nothing about him (which isn't the case in the slightest) I don't have to be eternally confused and annoyed.

Walter Benjamin is a pretty good source. Theodor Adorno got most of his overanalytical notions about Kierkegaard from him. And on the subject of philosophy critics camed Walter, Walter Kaufmann's Existentialism from Dostoevsky to Sartre is a good read.

[Norma J]

Originally Posted by swa(y)

tehy are often referred to as "protopunk" for a reason. soon after the stooges we see alot of bands spring up that were highly influenced by the stooges approach, most of which went on to be called "punk"...the ramones, and esp. the dead boys are great examples. shit, even the pistols. all three of these bands even went as far as to cover stooges songs if that says anything.

its got to do with the attitude, the rawness, and the minimal approach.

the stooges were a punk band if there was ever such a thing. rumour has it lester bangs coined the term "punk rock" to describe the stooges...course another rumour has it that legs mcniel coined the phrase. really, it matters not.

I'm not denying they're considered "punk". I'm just saying they sound Rock 'n' Roll to me - well, to be honest, I'm really only working off Fun House, which I consider a great Rock 'n' Roll album.

As for the attitude etc, yes, apparently that is 'Punk'. But then Rock 'n' Roll has an attitude similar. Heck, look at Motorhead. You don't get many bands that say "fuck you" like Motorhead, and they're considered 'Metal'. Although they did fuse elements of 'punk' into their sound.

As I get older, I get more cynical when it comes to these things and consider 'punk' less an attitude and more just an image.

As for the Sex Pistols, they have some tunes that are listenable, but there's just something about them that irritates me - probably their stupid fucking look.

[Norma J]

Their music doesn't hold anything worth while for me either, though.

[Norma J]

I don't think it's cool to 'dis' the Sex Pistols - quite the opposite. It's cooler to dress the part, put the attitude on, and pretend they're gods.

Not one band alone purely influences another band. In my opinion, if a band were completely and utterly influenced by the Sex pistols and the Sex Pistols alone, than that band would be just as boring.

The Stooges on the other hand are far from boring.

[HaydenAsche]

Hey, man. TAR is fucking amazing. I'm drunk. Listen to "speed". It's good as fuck. Fuck.

[evollove]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Without wanting to sound overly pretentious, TG perhaps best illustrate the point made by Adorno that an avant-garde (assuming we might want to think of punk, as MacLaren surely did, as avant-garde) is effective only in so far as its very form cannot be appropriated by mass industry.

.

Overly pretentious is better than ignorant any day of the week.

Adorno, being a trained composer, would've HATED punk, and would've found its attempt to be avant-garde to be false. Punk employs some rather convential harmonic structures, which is at odds with the "anti-x" attitude. Adorno had come across this before and wasn't impressed. Only a composer like Shoenberg, in A's opinion, is truly avant-garde (and thus, un-appropriatable (I made a new word!)) by breaking from Western tonal techniques. The fact that "anyone can play punk" (whereas no one but Shoenberg can write Shoenberg) is its nail in the coffin. Ever see that poster: "here's a chord, here's another. One more. Now start a band"? Adorno would've been aghast at the idea of all these bands forming, using the same chords. "Make up your own chords!" he would've advised, I think. While I'm putting words in his mouth, I imagine that he would've dug a good deal of SY's stuff.

-Glice, his writing is harder than week-old shit, isn't it? He's not very quotable, and its hard to extract any slogans from his writings. I think he might've wanted it that way.

[LittlePuppetBoy]

1. Sheena is a Punk-Ramones
2.Minor Threat
3. vox-Guy Piccioto, lead-Ron Ashton, rhythm-Johnny Ramone, bass-Mike Watt, drums-ROBO
4. Minor Threat-Complete Discography
5. Sound System-Operation Ivy
6. Fugazi's Instrument Soundtrack?
7. The U-Men
8. Fall Out Boy
9. American
10. Inhuman

[Glice]

Originally Posted by evollove

-Glice, his writing is harder than week-old shit, isn't it? He's not very quotable, and its hard to extract any slogans from his writings. I think he might've wanted it that way.

Originally Posted by Adorno

Fun is a medicinal bath

It's not so much that it's difficult as it is intricate; there's too many clauses to make 'simple' sense. He's amazing, and entirely relevant and (to Mr 2600) not at all anything like stealing from Benjamin (that's far too blithe a sentiment) but mainly as impossible as can be (short of Hegel).

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by swa(y)

well...it wasnt "just" the pistols....obviously...if there were no voidoids/NY Dolls/ and esp the stooges, thered damned sure be no pistols.

but shit, if there were no beach boys thered be no ramones would be no screachin weasel would be no green day...it goes on forever man. i just find history interesting.


i dont see many kids dressing up like the pistols these days. its rare man. least around here.

Well, yeah somewhat, but specifically, if I had to name just one band, there would probably have been no Sex Pistols without (believe it or not) Roxy Music. And of course, there probably wouldn't have been a Roxy Music without The New York Dolls.
So, germane to your statement of analysis, I'd underscore The New York Dolls before I did The Stooges (even though they also figure in as well).

Like you wrote, "it goes on forever..."

For instance, even though Syd Barrett and (The) Pink Floyd were hated by many of the early punks, the fact remains that they were the ones to first (along with late-period The Beatles, mid-The Kinks, and then early David Bowie and T-Rex, of course) to make freaky, non-mainstream-sounding music popular enough to attract a sizeable audience and fanbase.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by evollove

Adorno, being a trained composer, would've HATED punk, and would've found its attempt to be avant-garde to be false. Punk employs some rather convential harmonic structures, which is at odds with the "anti-x" attitude.

You're right in terms of most punk but I was referring explicitely to TG. You might be correct that they too don't qualify as avant-garde as defined by Adorno, but they certainly don't fall into the three chords and you're away school either. And Adorno only really celebrated Schoenberg's atonality because he saw it as irreducible to 'kitsch' which, as Atari has already mentioned, brings Walter Benjamin into the equation, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by atari 2600

there would probably have been no Sex Pistols without (believe it or not) Roxy Music. And of course, there probably wouldn't have been a Roxy Music without The New York Dolls.

I agree totally with the first point, but not the second. Roxy had already released their first album by the time the Dolls had released theirs. I'm sure they would've ended up hearing about them soon after that but certainly they were a functioning band before being exposed to the Dolls.

[Glice]

Madness. Slug Bait, Weeping, United, Something came over me, Discipline... madness I tells you.

[HaydenAsche]

1. Anarchy Burger!
2. Dead Kennedy's
3. Jello Biafra would do vox. The rest doesn't matter. Whoever can play 3 chords the best.
4. DK - Fresh Fuit for Rotting Vegetables
5. Arab on Radar shit.
6. DK - Chemical Warfare
7. I think all kinds of shit is much more punk in spirit than what's generally considered punk. I.e. The whole Arab on Radar, AIDSwolf, KK Rampage scene.
8. Lots of that whole alternative shit.
9. Fuck the feud.
10. The whole CIS/KYI shit.

[Everyneurotic]

1. A Punk song that defines the genre:

black flag - damaged I

2. A Punk band that defines the genre:

minor threat

3. The ultimate Punk band lineup (Vox/Lead/Rhythm/Bass/Drums):

errm, this is kinda dumb but ok:

glenn danzig - vocals
bubba dupree: lead
lyle presslar: rhythm
franc'o (of mdc) - bass
mick harris (of napalm death) - drums

4. One Punk album you would want on a desert island:

agnostic front - victim in pain.

5. One Punk song that makes you dance:

dks - holiday in cambodia or pussy galore - cunt tease

6. One Punk song that makes you think:

the buzzcocks - ever fallen in love

7. A band that should be thought of as Punk, but rarely are:

wu-tang clan.

8. A band that shouldn't be thought of as Punk, but regularly are:

ED: actually, pennywise, nofx and 99% of the bands on epitaph, fat wreck chords, kung fu and all those labels.

9. British or American:

japanese

10. Sonic Youth's most Punk Rock song (no covers):

orange rolls and angel spit.

[Everyneurotic]

Glice and demonrail: completely agree with your points but something needs to be said about the argument of tg and the sex pistols.

throbbing gristle begat the sex pistols.

and it's not "it goes on forever" with this, not only were tg and coum transmissions one of the first real and non-theatrical shock bands/collectives, they were also ones that defied the idea of good taste and art with that of trash and disgust. more importantly though, is that if coum and tg hadn't already achieved some notoriety in the uk, it wouldn't have been safe enough for the mclaren to apply a more appealing to a wider public version of what they were doing.

had there not be a genesis p-orridge and co. before the pistols, they wouldn't have had the balls to talk about anarchy and insult the queen and just go on a terror campaign through britain like they did.

[atari 2600]

You're right, demonrail. For some reason, I thought that The Dolls had played The Old Grey Whistle Test before Roxy Music, but they didn't appear on the programme until 1973. Roxy Music had already appeared (I think from my recent haha research) in 1971 and 1972.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Norma J

I don't like the Sex Pistols. They bore the shit outta me. They remind me of them kids at school who try and play the role of the misfit purely for image.

My opinion.

esu dehna andit new beyane! (its a good one, at that!)

[atari 2600]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norma J
I don't like the Sex Pistols. They bore the shit outta me. They remind me of them kids at school who try and play the role of the misfit purely for image.

My opinion.

Yeah, I'm real sorry you got spurned by or the evil eye from the goo girl with the Sex Pistols patch or Never Mind sticker, but give it a rest.

[evollove]

[quote=demonrail666]You're right in terms of most punk but I was referring explicitely to TG. You might be correct that they too don't qualify as avant-garde as defined by Adorno, but they certainly don't fall into the three chords and you're away school either. And Adorno only really celebrated Schoenberg's atonality because he saw it as irreducible to 'kitsch' which, as Atari has already mentioned, brings Walter Benjamin into the equation, etc, etc.
quote]

Gotcha. Sort of. What Benjamin are we referring to? Just wondering.

Anyone find it odd that the Sex Pistol's have an anti-abortion song (albeit one probably not embraced by the majority of Right to Lifers)?

Aren't the Clash and The Pistols total opposites? Isn't one is "anti-ignorance, pro-creativity" and the other is all about mindless destruction? When Johnny wants to destroy passerby, would that include punks as well? When Joe wants a white riot, isn't that a means to a political end?

Can I just ask directly what has been hinted at: What is punk?

[RdTv]

1. A Punk song that defines the genre: I Wanna Be Your Dog
2. A Punk band that defines the genre: Ramones
3. The ultimate Punk band lineup (Vox/Lead/Rhythm/Bass/Drums):Iggy Pop/Greg Ginn/Johnny Thunders/Tom Verlaine/Billy Murcia
4. One Punk album you would want on a desert island: Black Flag - Damaged
5. One Punk song that makes you dance:Ramones - 53&3rd
6. One Punk song that makes you think:Seeing Red - Minor Threat
7. A band that should be thought of as Punk, but rarely are:Television
8. A band that shouldn't be thought of as Punk, but regularly are:Blink 182,Good Charlotte, Sum 41 etc.........
9. British or American: American
10. Sonic Youth's most Punk Rock song (no covers):'Cross The Breeze

[satirejohn]

1. A Punk song that defines the genre:
The Stooges - 1970
2. A Punk band that defines the genre:
The Stooges
3. The ultimate Punk band lineup (Vox/Lead/Rhythm/Bass/Drums):
Jello Biafra (and Henry Rollins), East Bay Ray, Greg Ginn, Tracy Pew, Grant Hart
4. One Punk album you would want on a desert island:
Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables
5. One Punk song that makes you dance:
Dead Kennedys - Too Drunk to Fuck
6. One Punk song that makes you think:
Black Flag - My War
7. A band that should be thought of as Punk, but rarely are:
Velvet Underground
8. A band that shouldn't be thought of as Punk, but regularly are:
Good Charlotte
9. British or American:
American
10. Sonic Youth's most Punk Rock song (no covers):
'Cross the Breeze