[Glice]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Yeah, I should clarify my original post.

I do believe that every action is a political one in so far as it either reinforces or critiques a given 'system'. Whether anyone living in that system can ever properly attack it is a difficult one. Personally I think it can but a flood of theory says I'm wrong.

Whatever I'm saying, it isn't that we need to return to the tub-thumping of red wedge, but rather the way in which culture can be used as a questioner of consensual values. In this sense It's my belief that a group like Public Enemy were more politically useful in their attitude to the language of music than they were lyrically. Any innovation in musical structure or attempt to redefine how music can be produced or distributed is (for me) far more politically useful than seeing a singer on stage with an acoustic guitar bemoaning the war. In this sense, whether he wants to acknowledge it or not, I'd say that someone like Dr Evil is potentially far more political than someone like Chris Martin. Spouting reactionary ideas via a radicalised language is far more useful than spouting supposedly radical ones via a dead one. The Dixie Chicks call into question a particular issue but ultimately uphold the system that allows for it. Dr Evil calls into question that very system simply by existing, it seems to me. Seeing him sing 'More Punnany' on daytime TV would be one of the most radical things in music I can think of right now.

I've a feeling this is going to get a bit Routledge set*...

I think you're cock-on about the Dixie Chicks being part of the system they're critiquing, but that's an essential tenement of political progress, especially at that mass level - the hegemony of the system is perpetuated by its fluid, amorphous, nameless mass, not by it being the image of the demagogue puppeteering malificiently. The role the Dixie Chicks play is to represent the dissensus within this formless mass, the dissimulation and the re-orientation of the hegemony. It's not a question of political top trumps, but I'd argue that the Dixie Chicks tacitly and likely unconsciously represent a far more powerful movement in America in general than do, say, the DKs. This statement will necessarily be lost on most here, I'm afraid to say. A caveat - while PE galvanised and awakened political consciousness in a great many black and white men and women, their ultimate legacy is musical - anyone who was tipped into big-p Political actions by PE would've become a firebrand regardless, PE are the catalyst.

The Pistols speak of being a parody of their political selves (to my mind retroactively). 'Smash the system' is a trope, a narrative, and at this point in history, a staging, a theatrical gesture. The reason why people dislike 'corporate' punk is precisely because it reminds them of this theatrics, it reminds audiences of the suspension of disbelief that accompanies even the smallest scale of punk songs. No-one ever 'smashed the system', the system has no body to smash, it is not brittle and fragile, it doesn't adhere to any such metaphor. The system merely is, its being formed as an impossible network of organs and byways, intractable and in-negotiable.

*It's a real shame that it's only Herr Rail will get this gag, it's a good one...

[demonrail666]

^^Suscfriends^^i'm not sure if i meant that. I'm saying that by provoking a system, culture can be a useful tool in showing a side of the system that it probably never wants you to see. It lays bare the machine for what it really is.

[RanaldoNecro]

As for stereotypes

Eventually many things seem to boil down to race but here is a new siutation..

It seems that the 'what you are not' is eventually being eroded. The 'what you are not' is what binds us together. For example, hating the Mets is a big part of being a Yankees fan or Glasgow Ranger and Celtic fans etc.

If we are no longer allowed to dis the other side than it just becomes silly. This was most evidnet in the Don Imus nappy situation...

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

and that is exactly why people in the 'hood' listen to this music, because it reflects and contains these experiences, just like ol coal mining music reflects the experience of ol virginia coal miners..

old coal mining music is nuts! some crazy tunes.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

The music industry may have exploited and mass marketed these groups, but you know damn well that for better or worse the original NWA crowd was all the broke as car stealin, crack smoking, purse snatching mother fuckers from Harris Avenue and Alondra Blvd...

the FANS maybe, NWA were prep school, college educated, MIDDLE CLASS "gangstas"

check out dre before his NWA "incarnation"

 

[Rob Instigator]

 

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Glice

I've a feeling this is going to get a bit Routledge set*...


*It's a real shame that it's only Herr Rail will get this gag, it's a good one...

you talking about china? dishes?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

the FANS maybe, NWA were prep school, college educated, MIDDLE CLASS "gangstas"

check out dre before his NWA "incarnation"

 

no,you are thinking of Dr Dre and Ice Cube in particular, but before the record company found them, the NWA krew were a bunch of rapping and jacking mother fuckers from Compton, South Central and Vernon. They are still heros up the street in Compton and Watts [Watts Up bitches!]

I live on Alondra, roll with foolz from Wattz, and go to Church in SouthCentral/Vernon

.. Since this is a thread about politics, I must note the extreme political culture of gang life and subsequently everybody elses life here in Los Angeles. It is not just an exaggerated stereotype, it is some nuts shit sometimes. So bitterly complicated, these fuckers are practically lawyers, both regarding street politics and legal ones as well from so much mutual experience... This shit is like rolling around in a stereotype of tribal Africa, you have to know EVERYBODY unless you want to become a mark.

its as it has been said, the streets are a muthafucker..

[Rob Instigator]

dude, Cube wrote all of Easy E's rhymes, and many of Dre's. Dre produced. dre and cube ARE and WERE N.W.A.

does not lessen their music or their influence, just saying that the fake ones were sold more profitably than the real ones.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

dude, Cube wrote all of Easy E's rhymes, and many of Dre's. Dre produced. dre and cube ARE and WERE N.W.A.

does not lessen their music or their influence, just saying that the fake ones were sold more profitably than the real ones.

you misunderstand what I am saying. It is not about who wrote what, and really who came from where. You called NWA studio gangsters, and regardless of what Dre was doing before he started pretending he was a gangster, but the way it works in Los Angeles is that pretending or not, if you roll around with some less then pretending motherfuckers you suddenly find yourself in realer situations.. in other words, regardless of where Dre and Ice Cube came from, by involving themselves with the original NWA foolz they jumped into some ACTUAL gangster shit. This town swallows up many a bright soul and good folk into the darkness of self-destructive gang violence, all human beings have a vindictive streek..

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Glice

I've a feeling this is going to get a bit Routledge set*...

I think you're cock-on about the Dixie Chicks being part of the system they're critiquing, but that's an essential tenement of political progress, especially at that mass level - the hegemony of the system is perpetuated by its fluid, amorphous, nameless mass, not by it being the image of the demagogue puppeteering malificiently. The role the Dixie Chicks play is to represent the dissensus within this formless mass, the dissimulation and the re-orientation of the hegemony. It's not a question of political top trumps, but I'd argue that the Dixie Chicks tacitly and likely unconsciously represent a far more powerful movement in America in general than do, say, the DKs. This statement will necessarily be lost on most here, I'm afraid to say. A caveat - while PE galvanised and awakened political consciousness in a great many black and white men and women, their ultimate legacy is musical - anyone who was tipped into big-p Political actions by PE would've become a firebrand regardless, PE are the catalyst.

The Pistols speak of being a parody of their political selves (to my mind retroactively). 'Smash the system' is a trope, a narrative, and at this point in history, a staging, a theatrical gesture. The reason why people dislike 'corporate' punk is precisely because it reminds them of this theatrics, it reminds audiences of the suspension of disbelief that accompanies even the smallest scale of punk songs. No-one ever 'smashed the system', the system has no body to smash, it is not brittle and fragile, it doesn't adhere to any such metaphor. The system merely is, its being formed as an impossible network of organs and byways, intractable and in-negotiable.

*It's a real shame that it's only Herr Rail will get this gag, it's a good one...

I really like your idea about the Dixie Chicks acting as a kind of 'dissensus' within the mass, which, while ultimately limited in what it can achieve, is invariably more successful than the 'all or nothing' tactic employed by most 'revolutionaries'.

I have to disagree with your point that a 'system' (which I do agree is an annoyingly vague term, but anyway) cannot be 'smashed'. History provides numerous examples of this very thing taking place. One system may be replaced by another even more corrupt one, but it does happen. A lot. Even today, in the war in Iraq, can we not say that Saddam Hussain's 'system' has been smashed? I'm not convinced that doing so has been for the greater good of Iraq, but certainly it's been smashed.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

you misunderstand what I am saying. It is not about who wrote what, and really who came from where. You called NWA studio gangsters, and regardless of what Dre was doing before he started pretending he was a gangster, but the way it works in Los Angeles is that pretending or not, if you roll around with some less then pretending motherfuckers you suddenly find yourself in realer situations.. in other words, regardless of where Dre and Ice Cube came from, by involving themselves with the original NWA foolz they jumped into some ACTUAL gangster shit. This town swallows up many a bright soul and good folk into the darkness of self-destructive gang violence, all human beings have a vindictive streek..

I understand.

[Rob Instigator]

my favorite marley/wailers song is ZIMBABWE from SURVIVAL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm9KH...eature=related (song only)

every man's got the right to decide his own destiny/
and in this judgement there is no partiality/
so arm in arm, with arms, we'll fight this little struggle/
cuz that's the only way we can overcome our little trouble./

 

(this fits in with the politics in music thread)

[Rob Instigator]

I am gonna lay off Dre
his son died Saturday. Reading the stuff below makes me think, drug overdose.


Sad news this afternoon. Dr. Dre's 20-year-old son passed away over the weekend. Andre Young Jr. was found by his mother Saturday morning at their home in Woodland Hills, CA.
Andre was out with his friends the night before and came home at around 5:30 in the morning. His mother called the paramedics when she couldn't wake him. They pronounced him dead at the scene.
An autopsy was performed yesterday in Los Angeles. Andre's cause of death is not known at this time.
Dr. Dre's rep confirmed the news to People: "Dr. Dre is mourning the loss of his son. Please respect his family's grief and privacy at this time."

[RanaldoNecro]

Even today, in the war in Iraq, can we not say that Saddam Hussain's 'system' has been smashed?

Really, when you boil down war it is about the contrast of philiosophy. Some of the 'co-alition of the willing' believe they are right saviours when indeed they maybe ignorant and wrong...

Countries like Russia have a democracy and yet they don't have equal rights. Only now some western countries are entering the 'emotional terrain' of a full and real democracy...

[Glice]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I really like your idea about the Dixie Chicks acting as a kind of 'dissensus' within the mass, which, while ultimately limited in what it can achieve, is invariably more successful than the 'all or nothing' tactic employed by most 'revolutionaries'.

I have to disagree with your point that a 'system' (which I do agree is an annoyingly vague term, but anyway) cannot be 'smashed'. History provides numerous examples of this very thing taking place. One system may be replaced by another even more corrupt one, but it does happen. A lot. Even today, in the war in Iraq, can we not say that Saddam Hussain's 'system' has been smashed? I'm not convinced that doing so has been for the greater good of Iraq, but certainly it's been smashed.

Yeah... but... I can't help but feel that there's two referents for 'system'. I don't think the Iraqi people rose up against their oppresor because of Green Day's 'wake me up when September ends'. In fact, so far as I remember there was no wide-spread insurrection in Iraq against Hussein. I realise this might seem a bit hair-splitting (or splitting-hairs, if you prefer), but the 'smashing of the system' to which middle-class white punks refer is a libidinal desire, not a political one. Oppressed people make mournful music, certainly, but the recently down-trodden (I'm thinking of Zimbabwe/ Rhodesia now) tend to have no voice at all - their smashing the system is a struggle for air, not a struggle for a voice.

[RanaldoNecro]

libidinal desire,

Not always. That can be carried on behind closed doors. Not every male movement is determined by sexual want. There is a also a symbolic loss of ones position and status...

[Rob Instigator]

most powerful people act solely to ensure they do not lose their [position of power.
everything else is secondary.

Buckminster Fuller said in 1980 that the world had the inherent ability and resources at that time to have every single citizen of earth living like a millionaire does in the USA. The problem lies in wealthy nations,a nd wealthy cities and wealthy individuals hoarding hundreds or thousands or MILLIONS of times more wealth than they could ever foreseeably spend.

[demonrail666]

^Glice^Yeah ... but ... I can't help thinking that all this really boils down to a difference between a philosophical notion of the system, and a political one. Both can and often do inform the other but in essence, a political system (as I'm using it) refers to a social infrastructure whereas a philosophical one exists largely on the more abstract plain of ideas.

It's far harder to destroy an idea than it is an electrical grid. where philosophy comes into play for me is as a means towards laying down an intellectual framework required to encourage people to act on behalf of their own interests. Which is the one thing Marx did get right I suppose. The libidinal desire you refer to is I think the consequence of a philosophical idea being mobilised for purely philosophical ends.

And no, Iraqi people never did rise up, and even if they did, it wouldn't have been as a result of Green Day. I'll tell you what though: I've heard that American troops love a bit of Pantera on the ol' tank stereo. What that means in relation to this argument I've absolutely no idea, other than that it makes me hate Pantera even more than I did before.

[Glice]

I don't get the dislike of Pantera. It's the most perfect music for hideously banal tasks, like hoovering or putting a shelf up.