[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

art is a specific thing

what is it?

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

well what does and who decides? i mean i hate post-modern bullshit with a burning passion but some people love that stuff and it baffles and alientates me that they do but what else can i do but tollerate and accept that their view on a particular thing is something i will never be able to relate to or understand and just end up having to allow it, and hope that in the future people will see that i was right all along.

Then again, you could just chill out, enjoy doing your artwork, and stop bothering about erroneous opinions about what art is, isn't or might be thought of being. I mean, it's not like worrying extremely or making it a visible focus of your energy is going to help you concentrate on producing any of worth.

[Decayed Rhapsody]

^ Yes.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Then again, you could just chill out, enjoy doing your artwork, and stop bothering about erroneous opinions about what art is, isn't or might be thought of being. I mean, it's not like worrying extremely or making it a visible focus of your energy is going to help you concentrating on producing any of worth.

yeah, normally i don't think about that stuff at all these days, but when i was at art school i had to deal with it on a daily basis and i read last night something that reminded me about it, i was just using it as an example. and if i ever try to sell or get my work or get it out into the world post-modern BS is probably something that will cross my path again.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

yeah, normally i don't think about that stuff at all these days, but when i was at art school i had to deal with it on a daily basis and i read last night something that reminded me about it, i was just using it as an example. and if i ever try to sell or get my work or get it out into the world post-modern BS is probably something that will cross my path again.

The whole art school creativity thing+rebellion+drink motherfucker+create+I think it's great+you look cool so I think it's great, even though I don't have any other feelings apart from those for my own ego and similarly self-absorbed, resembling my own views on humans people which are as relevant to a wider audience as nothing like that is+ might have done it.

[mysonichaircut]

hes right, but his music sounds like shit.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Isn't doing an interview for GQ kind of anti-Albini? Aren't they appropriating him to sell magazines and look cool?

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I also do not rate movies as an art form.

"art" that takes 20 producers, 300 crew and staff people, 20 actors, dozens of editors, cinematgraphers, etc is not art. it is ENGINEERING.
of course some movies are art. Of course some coffee stais are art as well.
that does not amke the media of film an art form.

I see it as a craft. 99% of movie making is not creative at all. thescreenwriter is creative. the actors themselves are creative. everyone else, from the director to the cinematographer to the lighting guy to the editor are NOT creating anything. they are putting parts created by others together to make a cohesive whole. while admirable and difficult, it is as "ART" as building a new toilet is.

Is Ballet then not an art? Or is only the music the art?

In my experience, crafting is an art.

How is Kurosawa, Kubrick, Welles, etc. not art?

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

people are the least of the tools used in movies. movies are constructed like engineering projects, for efficiency of storytelling. a great film can be a work of art, like a great piece of pottery, but most films are craft, utilitarian craft, like most pottery. pretty, enjoyable but not art.

just a personal view. being a director in a movie is more like being a CEO of a business than it is about creativity. That is why the truly creative directors are not used much in "hollywood" for they seek to express something instead of making an efficient money making movie.
I feel the performances in film are art. the films themselves? not so much.

Ahhh . . . the "it's only art if I like it" argument.

[GeneticKiss]

I for one am fairly glad that Sonic Youth helped drag alternative music/culture into the mainstream, because without it we'd be drowning in hip-hop related crap (and not the good kind of hip-hop, either). A lot of people think the 80s were the apex of rock music, from musicianship to partying, but once you reach the top, there's only one direction left to go-down. By 1990, rock was definitely heading toward the bottom. The alternative era revitalized rock music by first destroying the blights of the hair band days (overproduction, wanky musicianship, the whole live fast/die young ethos) and rebuilding it as something new and exciting again. But that wouldn't have happened if someone-like Sonic Youth-hadn't stood up and said, "The masses are asses, huh? Well, fuck that! We're taking our music to the people, and if they like it, cool, and if they don't...well, at least we tried."

Yeah, the main stream can be pretty shallow in some parts, but...I dunno, I've spent a good part of my late teens and early-to-mid 20s being a music snob and railing against the conventions of pop culture, but I've found the fringe to be a pretty lonely place and I've got ambitions that won't fit on it. Compromise is about two sides giving a little, so maybe if I want the mainstream to come to me, I need to go to them a bit.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by GeneticKiss

I for one am fairly glad that Sonic Youth helped drag alternative music/culture into the mainstream, because without it we'd be drowning in hip-hop related crap (and not the good kind of hip-hop, either). A lot of people think the 80s were the apex of rock music, from musicianship to partying, but once you reach the top, there's only one direction left to go-down. By 1990, rock was definitely heading toward the bottom. The alternative era revitalized rock music by first destroying the blights of the hair band days (overproduction, wanky musicianship, the whole live fast/die young ethos) and rebuilding it as something new and exciting again. But that wouldn't have happened if someone-like Sonic Youth-hadn't stood up and said, "The masses are asses, huh? Well, fuck that! We're taking our music to the people, and if they like it, cool, and if they don't...well, at least we tried."

Yeah, the main stream can be pretty shallow in some parts, but...I dunno, I've spent a good part of my late teens and early-to-mid 20s being a music snob and railing against the conventions of pop culture, but I've found the fringe to be a pretty lonely place and I've got ambitions that won't fit on it. Compromise is about two sides giving a little, so maybe if I want the mainstream to come to me, I need to go to them a bit.

You do have some of the worst opinions known to mankind.

[GeneticKiss]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

You do have some of the worst opinions known to mankind.

Mmm-hmm. Have fun at your day job.

[Sykid87]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Isn't doing an interview for GQ kind of anti-Albini? Aren't they appropriating him to sell magazines and look cool?





Is Ballet then not an art? Or is only the music the art?

In my experience, crafting is an art.

How is Kurosawa, Kubrick, Welles, etc. not art?

Agreed!

[Genteel Death]

If Steve Albini finally gave up flirting with the mainstream he so despises, I might even take him seriously. In the meantime he should just worry about placing a real microphone up his wife's arse and pontify about the realness of its sound.

[atsonicpark]

Re: films, there are auteurs and then there are studio men. Look at DePalma's more personal films, and his more "studio" type films (Mission: Impossible). There's plenty of artistry in his camera movements and editing choices, though I don't think $100,000,000 films are "artistic". But DePalma is definitely an artist, as are Ozu, Jost, Godard, Kitano, etc. -- basically, directors who live and die for their films, and are usually not very financially successful. But very very few directors are auteurs and display any artistic flourishes in getting their films made. Most films are made for money -- the films made for the love of making a film, ie films that are a bit more personal, demand a respect for their artistry. Maybe "movies" aren't an "art form", but if they're not, then novels/painters/video games/music/etc aren't art forms, since it can be argued that all of that stuff is just for money, and just manfuactured. And, hell, most of it is. But there are real artists doing personal and brilliant art, too.

NOTE: Steve Albini's favorite film of all time is "Used Cars", which is one of the best comedies ever!

 

Amazing film.

As for Albini's politics, he's always been caught up with "integrity" and whatnot. He usually makes some great points, but more often than not, he comes across as bitter and usually just make me go "Yeah, but who cares?" It's worked well for him; Shellac is one of the only bands ever to be successful without a manger (Fugazi also comes to mind), videos, major label backings, and releasing an album only once in a blue moon. So, yeah, I dunno... I'd say, regardless of what crazy shit he's said, he produced Space Streakings albums and that makes him one of the coolest people ever! Anyway, here's a GREAT interview with him:

http://www.markprindle.com/albini-i.htm

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by atsonicpark

Re: films, there are auteurs and then there are studio men. Look at DePalma's more personal films, and his more "studio" type films (Mission: Impossible). There's plenty of artistry in his camera movements and editing choices, though I don't think $100,000,000 films are "artistic". But DePalma is definitely an artist, as are Ozu, Jost, Godard, Kitano, etc. -- basically, directors who live and die for their films, and are usually not very financially successful. But very very few directors are auteurs and display any artistic flourishes in getting their films made. Most films are made for money -- the films made for the love of making a film, ie films that are a bit more personal, demand a respect for their artistry. Maybe "movies" aren't an "art form", but if they're not, then novels/painters/video games/music/etc aren't art forms, since it can be argued that all of that stuff is just for money, and just manfuactured. And, hell, most of it is. But there are real artists doing personal and brilliant art, too.

NOTE: Steve Albini's favorite film of all time is "Used Cars", which is one of the best comedies ever!

 

Amazing film.

Like his words mean anything. Of course moving images are as much art as anything to do with creativity. I feel almost stupid writing this, if it wasn't for the fact that I am blessed with such a pretty face that is a work of art itself.

[Derek]

I think we're all forgetting the fact that Rob is a tad idiotic and half the stuff he says shouldn't be taken seriously.

[atsonicpark]

Rob is just violent.

[ann ashtray]

I think we're all forgetting that Rob is one of few people on here that often actually DOES know what he's talking about.

I like Rob. His interests go beyond musical snobbery + video games.

[!@#$%!]

albini comes across as a puritan, and the article itself says that he and his bandmates make a living from pursuits other than music.

hence they have the "freedom" (relatively) to record every 5 years and tour once a decade or whenever the fuck they can do it.

sonic youth members on the other hand try to make a living from music; as a result, they have to do what it takes to make their business work.

here's the catch though: whatever the fuck albini's band members do to work for a living, they sure have to "compromise" with economic realities.

e.g.: albini records for musicians who work for the very major labels he decries; bob weston is also a business owner; todd trainer (wikipedia sez) "manages a warehousing and shipping company"-- i'm sure he trades with "the man" on a daily basis and doesn't just store and ship fair-trade hand-made hemp goods.

everybody has to make a living and quit the adolescent posturing. what you decide to do in order to eat and feed your children is up to you. albini simply shifts his compromises from the musical sphere to the business one. in other words, he sweeps the filth under the rug. and that doesn't make him purer than anybody else who tries to make an honest living with their work--it just makes him more sanctimonious.

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Isn't doing an interview for GQ kind of anti-Albini? Aren't they appropriating him to sell magazines and look cool?

oh yes, and of course this too. i'm sure he got either money or free publicity (or both) out of "the man".

[Dead-Air]

Moshe, I love you, but you totally mistitled this thread. He didn't "go off on Sonic Youth". He criticized one facet of their behavior, while acknowledging they are still his friends and he still likes their music. As others have stated, they probably agree with a lot of what he had to say, given they left the majors and returned to the indie world.

That said, he can't help but look like a hypocrite for saying it in an interview in fucking GQ! Not to mention that this is the guy who produced In Utero for what was then the biggest selling major label band on the planet (did a fine job too, but that's not the point). Sure he told them not to put the word "produced" on it so he could maintain his indie cred, but lets be real. I'm sure the paycheck was a bit higher than $1,000. Probably still pays for his internet connection so can watch funny cat videos on that bastion of non-corporate media You Tube.