[GravitySlips]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

No, I just like seeing adults behave like adults. I.e....no putting all their personal business out there for the masses.

You seem to have more of an issue with Kim Gordon giving an interview than you do about Thurston Moore screwing another woman behind his wife of 25+ years' back. It's fucking bizarre. But hey, as long as Thurston signs a few records for the fans, it's cool, right?

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

I'm not trying to defend Thurston for cheating as much as I am enforcing the fact that his business is not of ours. And I've yet to hear him mention personally that he cheated...just for the record. It's possible I've missed it though as I've not been following interviews too closely.

I've yet to hear it too. So what? What are you expecting? People who have cheated often deny it to their immediate social circle - so what's Thurston going to say? Fuck all. How "badass" of him though...

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

This sounds like a contradictory statement. Besides Kim, which "side" said he cheated?

I agree with you 100% that cheating on a marriage is completely wrong. That's not the point here. The point is that you don't know if he cheated.

Who's better than his own ex-wife to decide if he cheated or not? Yours and sway's arguments are reminding me very much of when someone finally comes out about being in an abusive relationship and they are met with the sort of attitude you two are displaying on this thread. Deplorable and contrary.

Also, sway may think that this is not a matter for the fans to discuss, but have a look at his post count on this thread alone.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Who's better than his own ex-wife to decide if he cheated or not? Yours and sway's arguments are reminding me very much of when someone finally comes out about being in an abusive relationship and they are met with the sort of attitude you two are displaying on this thread. Deplorable and contrary.

Also, sway may think that this is not a matter for the fans to discuss, but have a look at his post count on this thread alone.

I think its important in any/all scenarios to offer an alternative way of viewing the situation. I havent stated things i dont know as fact or bashed anyone for doing things theyve never discussed with me. Anything ive said, most of it anyway, has been a reaction to the negative attitude of fans...not the band members. Relax. Yr not really calling me out on anything too specific. Also, hearts. Post more art man. Dig yr stuff.

[Diesel]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

What should he say? Should he make a public apology to the fans? lol. Should he make a public apology to Kim? Get fucking real.

Keeping his mouth shut makes him a badass. Maybe, for some reason, he doesn't feel guilty. If so, what is it to you? He clearly isn't embarrassed. He hasn't hidden the fact that he has a new romantic interest nor has there been any "lay low 'till it blows over" period. Perhaps he's made a mistake and has moved on to something that makes more sense to him as a person. I don't see anything wrong with that. People fuck up. From what i can tell regarding the issue, Kim's main concern wasn't the fact that he (apparently..) cheated, it was his refusal to stop seeing this other woman. Cleary there was a period to where she knew what was going on and didn't leave him. This says something worth thinking about. Maybe she was just a woman willing to maybe work on things (they went to counseling), and maybe something happened that made him feel more comfortable with what he was doing. Do you know? If so, please enlighten me. Something tells me you don't.


The most interesting thing about this has been fan reaction. Perhaps it shouldn't be.

Er.. I was talking about you.

Those questions look rather embarrassing, you've obviously had yourself a little moment there haven't you.

[chrome noise tape]

fuck off! between wife and husband nobody should stay in the middle ! this his their problem ! sonic fans should care about music or other art performance with the "sonics"! love issues it's with between them ! or you must change the name of this forum for "k & T a soap opera"!

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Who's better than his own ex-wife to decide if he cheated or not? Yours and sway's arguments are reminding me very much of when someone finally comes out about being in an abusive relationship and they are met with the sort of attitude you two are displaying on this thread. Deplorable and contrary.

Also, sway may think that this is not a matter for the fans to discuss, but have a look at his post count on this thread alone.

When you say "abusive," do you mean physical abuse? If my unwillingness to label Thurston a villain based on one side of a story reminds you of someone who condones wife beating, then let me help you out:

When a husband or wife participates in extramarital sex/romance, it is often very simply a case of selfish cheating and a betrayal of his/her partner. But sometimes, there is more to the story, as previously discussed in this thread.

Wife beating, on the other hand, is NEVER excusable and is despicable under any circumstances. I'm sorry you can't differentiate between the two.

Let me ask you this: You are obviously open to the possibility that Thurston is a cheating dirt bag (and you should be, because it is entirely possible). But why won't you consider the possibility that Kim is not being entirely truthful? Why the double standard?

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

When you say "abusive," do you mean physical abuse? If my unwillingness to label Thurston a villain based on one side of a story reminds you of someone who condones wife beating, then let me help you out:

When a husband or wife participates in extramarital sex/romance, it is often very simply a case of selfish cheating and a betrayal of his/her partner. But sometimes, there is more to the story, as previously discussed in this thread.

Wife beating, on the other hand, is NEVER excusable and is despicable under any circumstances. I'm sorry you can't differentiate between the two.

Let me ask you this: You are obviously open to the possibility that Thurston is a cheating dirt bag (and you should be, because it is entirely possible). But why won't you consider the possibility that Kim is not being entirely truthful? Why the double standard?

I think, in all fairness, he was using the "abusive" thing as an example that came out bad. Least I hope.

Either way, glad there is someone here that seems to know where I'm coming from.

[secretmonalisa]

When SY was touring a few years ago Kim and Thurston were interviewed on video in South America or Mexico in a place filled with lush greenery. What struck me was that Thurston said "I love Kim" and Kim looked at him oddly. I had the feeling something weird was going on.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by secretmonalisa

When SY was touring a few years ago Kim and Thurston were interviewed on video in South America or Mexico in a place filled with lush greenery. What struck me was that Thurston said "I love Kim" and Kim looked at him oddly. I had the feeling something weird was going on.

Things no doubt seemed a bit weird for a while.

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

When you say "abusive," do you mean physical abuse? If my unwillingness to label Thurston a villain based on one side of a story reminds you of someone who condones wife beating, then let me help you out:

When a husband or wife participates in extramarital sex/romance, it is often very simply a case of selfish cheating and a betrayal of his/her partner. But sometimes, there is more to the story, as previously discussed in this thread.

Wife beating, on the other hand, is NEVER excusable and is despicable under any circumstances. I'm sorry you can't differentiate between the two.

Let me ask you this: You are obviously open to the possibility that Thurston is a cheating dirt bag (and you should be, because it is entirely possible). But why won't you consider the possibility that Kim is not being entirely truthful? Why the double standard?

I did mean abusive both in the physical and psychological sense of the word and I have also used yours and sway's attitudes on this thread as examples of the sort of sceptical scrutiny a woman who has been mistreated in a relationship often has to put up with, particularly from other males around her. You are both trying to find a fault in her statements to the press, when we are talking about someone who has been very private about her own personal life for years and years, so I don’t understand why she shouldn’t tell it straight now. I don't get why you both continue to doubt that she's been cheated on. And yes, there is more to the story, probably, but who said there isn’t?

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

I did mean abusive both in the physical and psychological sense of the word and I have also used yours and sway's attitudes on this thread as examples of the sort of sceptical scrutiny a woman who has been mistreated in a relationship often has to put up with, particularly from other males around her. You are both trying to find a fault in her statements to the press, when we are talking about someone who has been very private about her own personal life for years and years, so I don’t understand why she shouldn’t tell it straight now. I don't get why you both continue to doubt that she's not been cheated on. And yes, there is more to the story, probably, but who said there isn’t?

I don't doubt it, I'm just not going to act as if I know for sure when I don't. And beyond that, again, the act itself..whatever happened...should not in my opinion be public knowledge. I respect Thurston's right to keep it private more than I support hers to make it public. I still do support her right to say whatever she wishes, but only in the sense that I support anyone's right to say anything they wish. I do not have to like nor appreciate it. Making it public causes fans to frown on individuals that have no real right to frown on them for. If you cheat on someone, do I have the right to know? I mean, in all fairness I "know" you better than I know Thurston. At least in the way that I've actually communicated with you in some way beyond a quick photograph and a handshake. Should I dislike you for cheating on someone I don't know especially if I don't know all the details? I support Thurston's wishes for this to not be public. Unfortunately it already is. I thought they did a good job when it was just "we're seperating future of band unknown". In all fairness, even then, I think most of us (myself included) had a sneaking hunch as to what likely happened and sure, it was along the lines of what Kim said. Still, I think it can be more complex that what you (someone I do consider to be intelligent, mind you) and a few others are making it out to be.

It's not a black and white scenario, man. Fact (DISCLAIMER: I DO BELIEVE KIM) abuse "victims" have been known to lie. I don't think she's lying, but I think, based off of little tidbits of things T. has said, that there could POSSIBLY (<big word) be more to it. If not...whatever. I don't give a shit. I do find this thread fun. At least folks are talking about sonic youth again. I just hate it's gotta be...this.

[Genteel Death]

Sway, in all honesty, do you really think Thurston Moore really cares about what me and you think of his privacy? I don't think so. The guy's been a cynical fuck for years now. He’s probably been advised not to talk about the divorce by the lawyers suggested for him by Starbucks or some shit like that.

[Aaaadrpk]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Sway, in all honesty, do you really think Thurston Moore really cares about what me and you think of his privacy? I don't think so. The guy's been a cynical fuck for years now. He’s probably been advised not to talk about the divorce by the lawyers suggested for him by Starbucks or some shit like that.

exactly

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Sway, in all honesty, do you really think Thurston Moore really cares about what me and you think of his privacy? I don't think so. The guy's been a cynical fuck for years now. He’s probably been advised not to talk about the divorce by the lawyers suggested for him by Starbucks or some shit like that.

He cares. Very few mind having that sort of "reputation". Me and you specifically, probably not...

media has been know to totally kill reputations. i can't imagine the stress....

[Magic Wheel Memory]

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

I did mean abusive both in the physical and psychological sense of the word and I have also used yours and sway's attitudes on this thread as examples of the sort of sceptical scrutiny a woman who has been mistreated in a relationship often has to put up with, particularly from other males around her. You are both trying to find a fault in her statements to the press, when we are talking about someone who has been very private about her own personal life for years and years, so I don’t understand why she shouldn’t tell it straight now. I don't get why you both continue to doubt that she's been cheated on. And yes, there is more to the story, probably, but who said there isn’t?

Of course, women get abused, and sometimes they are met with an unfair skepticism when they seek help. But we are talking about people who we don't even know in a matter of the heart, as opposed to physical abuse. Therefore, doubt should be our default viewpoint. ("Doubt" doesn't mean that we are convinced Kim is wrong or that we are convinced Thurston is innocent. It just means that we are not willing to draw conclusions about a situation we know so little about.)

I'm glad that you agree that there may be more to the story, but when you say that Thurston is the "villain" in this story, you don't seem to acknowledge that there may be another side.

Finally, I'm not trying to find fault in Kim's statements. I'm simply not convinced that it reveals all the relevant facts in this story. My attitude about Thurston's alleged cheating is very much like a jury: "innocent until proven guilty." But I doubt that any of us will ever have enough "evidence" to reach a fair "verdict." If I had some way of knowing that Thurston simply got bored of Kim and decided to sleep with someone new, then I would lose a lot of respect for him.

[Toilet & Bowels]

So basically you don't want to believe he did that and are clutching at straws and making excuses knowing you'll probably never be privy to the full story.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

So basically you don't want to believe he did that and are clutching at straws and making excuses knowing you'll probably never be privy to the full story.

Same way you are basically stating you want to believe without the whole story. Terrible, imo.

[Rob Instigator]

The truth is that T caught me right as I was giving Kim the biggest, body-rocking gasm of her illustrious life. He cried (hard, like a lil' girl whose dog was just killed by the FBI), she laughed at him. I slammed the basement door shut, and we continued our week of debauchery...

[Genteel Death]

Originally Posted by Magic Wheel Memory

Of course, women get abused, and sometimes they are met with an unfair skepticism when they seek help. But we are talking about people who we don't even know in a matter of the heart, as opposed to physical abuse. Therefore, doubt should be our default viewpoint. ("Doubt" doesn't mean that we are convinced Kim is wrong or that we are convinced Thurston is innocent. It just means that we are not willing to draw conclusions about a situation we know so little about.)

I'm glad that you agree that there may be more to the story, but when you say that Thurston is the "villain" in this story, you don't seem to acknowledge that there may be another side.

Finally, I'm not trying to find fault in Kim's statements. I'm simply not convinced that it reveals all the relevant facts in this story. My attitude about Thurston's alleged cheating is very much like a jury: "innocent until proven guilty." But I doubt that any of us will ever have enough "evidence" to reach a fair "verdict." If I had some way of knowing that Thurston simply got bored of Kim and decided to sleep with someone new, then I would lose a lot of respect for him.

Look Thurston, it's your ex-wife you've left for sway, not me.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

Same way you are basically stating you want to believe without the whole story. Terrible, imo.

And you're saying that I'm not dumb enough to be right. I do see a kind of beauty in that.