[ilduclo]

 

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

"Beto" was one of the main dudes in The Cult of The Dead Cow https://twitter.com/josephmenn/statu...78730904764416

I would so chill with young Beto. I'd give modern Beto a nougie.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

I mean my perspective is that obamacare won't need fixed if universal healthcare is introduced. Most major first world countries in the world have it and with the amount of money in the US there is no reason not to implement it. This isn't a fantasy. A centrist stands for nothing except the status quo. Why put your hands up and go "let's just be managers of the chaos cause we can't hope for anything better!". At least a fascist believes in something, as repulsive as they are.

actually the dutch health care system is described as a "managed chaos". people have a lot of choices in said chaos. maybe worth looking into.

too much order is as horrible as too much chaos. maybe even worse.

and there are a lot of things about the status quo that are great, but people rarely notice them unfortunately. for example, i like not having famines, i like having drinking water and electricity, central heating and air conditioning, affordable private independent transportation, i like my private health insurance, and i like not having compulsory military service, and i wouldn't give up any of that voluntarily.

not all change is good and revolutions often end up in disaster. but you'll find out eventually.

switzerland has better universal healthcare than your country through fully private markets, with some subsidies for low income. insurance is really compulsory there though, with possible prison sentences for avoidance, but at the same time the industry is highly regulated. it is also decoupled from work, which means you need not be afraid to leave your job.

obamacare went half-ass on the swiss model. it's all they could squeeze.

but there are many ways to reach universal healthcare. government takeover of the medical profession is not the only one.

personally, having experienced government healthcare, i like to have a choice of provider.

Originally Posted by Derek

She was 'just doing her job', the point being that her job is fundamentally oppressive and goes against the interests that she's trying to pretend she cares about now. There's no such thing as a 'progressive prosecutor' nor will the left accept one as a candidate at this point.

what interests are those? and i don't know about the cases she prosecuted, honestly.

anyway i guess you never read about comissars and informant networks and gulags under communism.

"progressive" rule means big government, which%

[!@#$%!]

which means a big law enforcement apparatus. from the car that drives around looking for unlicensed tv sets to the enforcement of alcohol monopolies, price controls, etc., anything unsanctioned requires a cop. the bigger the government, the more prosecutors you need to prop up every rule.

i don't know if you realize you paradoxical position here.

Originally Posted by Derek

Do you remember Lenin being around? How old are you really symbol man? I have read a lot of Marx and Lenin's works, with Lenin mostly expounding on the framework that Marx built. That part of Russian history is very complicated but Americans seem to have a very particular view of Lenin. "Communism killed 100 million people!" (that figure is easily debatable too) Autocratic communism failed for multiple reasons, but it is nothing in comparison to the death toll that capitalism has inflicted. Of course Stalin was an authoritarian brute and I love fighting with tankies (supporters of Stalin) in left-wing spaces, but the circumstances in which Lenin and Stalin led (and their motives) are different. I know Americans are sort of taught to think of them as one in the same. You can gleam good political insight from Lenin's writings and also learn from his mistakes from when they were put in practice. The post-capitalist communist state I and so many others desire has nothing to do with Russia though beyond theory.

i'm old enough to have seen the end of stalinism. why did the east germans need to corral people? lmao. please, man. when everything belongs to the government, the government belongs to the few and the elite, and the authoritarians are in charge. it is the logical conclusion of these theories. no amount of wordsmithing can change that. we already found out empirically.

i grew up in various latin american countries with various degrees of socialistic policies. they were all a fucking disgrace and only succeeded in distributing poverty and increasing corruption.

for a contemporary scenario just look at venezuela. please.

eta: oh! i also spent almost a year in an israeli kibbutz back in the 90s. no young people wanted to stay so they had to import thai workers. ha ha ha!

Originally Posted by Derek

How are universal healthcare, free college etc. fictions? Nearly every other developed country has them! They are basic necessities that the majority of the Western world has and from a socialist point of view is literally the bare minimum for a fairer society.

the foremost fiction is that they are FREE, of course. there is no such thing as free goods and services. everything must be paid for. we have unlimited desires, but limited resources which have alternative uses. so every economic choice is a tradeoff. the tradeoff is the cost.

if you begin from the fallacy of free good an services, and no scarcity, and no tradeoffs, you're just operating in fantasy space.

just because the costs are hidden from sight or papered over with rhetoric, it doesn't mean that the costs are not there. in fact, governments are almost always offer higher costs and lesser quality goods and services than private enterprise.

i am actually tempted to say “always” but i cannot be sure. vast majority of cases i am right though.

Originally Posted by Derek

How much does the US spend on their overbloated military?

i'm not here to defend militarism. however, beware of power vacuums and greedy neighbors.

Originally Posted by Derek

And you're telling me the guy with cancer who makes $20k a year and needs $100k on gofundme can't get his life saving treatment paid for? What a mess. Macroeconomics means nothing to people suffering needlessly.

see, this is what you need to know what you're talking about before making up "theories".

the guy who makes little money actually receives taxpayer-funded healthcare through the government. obacamare actually forces you into medicaid when you don't make enough. so this imaginary person with his gofundme you're talking about is already receiving berniecare.

i actually know actual real cancer patients who get cancer treatment this way and they don't have gofundmes.

Originally Posted by Derek

What Bernie is proposing is a basic version of the Scandinavian system. I don't think that goes far enough for the damage that's been caused! The question is that can America accept anything further than that right now considering there is a lot of right-wing rhetoric and neoliberal institutionalism that's been free to fester and now needs to be undone?

good luck selling "scandinavian system" to america. i don't think the culture is there, and i don't think that people will like the tradeoffs once they actually experience them.

getting mandatory health insurance is hard enough. government takeover of the health industry-- many will hold their noses and vote for trump.

so we'll see how that goes. show me something solid and some figures instead of rhetoric. but i know that printing infinite money *does not work.* give everyone 'free dollars" and inflation ensues. good luck decreeing price controls to control inflation, lol. we'll all start paying with swiss franc or yen.

Originally Posted by Derek

I honestly don't know. No one does. I voted for Scottish independence at the time but I don't think it's the right time to try again. My gf works for a paper that fully supports independence and there will always be a certain percentage of people who think it's the best way to go, but we'll see what mainstream opinion becomes when Brexit becomes a bit more do or die (no constituency in Scotland voted for Brexit so the Scottish government's argument is that we're being dragged into something we didn't vote for and that independence is always a viable route out of it... it won't be that easy though). I only see the Irish situation getting worse, because on Brexit terms they'll need to betray the Good Friday agreement and peace has always been on condition. I couldn't go to my class last week because there was an IRA bomb threat. That's new for me!

shit. i didn't know the IRA was active again. or was it a prank? damn...

[Derek]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

and there are a lot of things about the status quo that are great, but people rarely notice them unfortunately. for example, i like not having famines, i like having drinking water and electricity, central heating and air conditioning, affordable private independent transportation, i like my private health insurance, and i like not having compulsory military service, and i wouldn't give up any of that voluntarily.

I mean, you can enjoy those many freedoms in other countries but with an added social safety net. Though I refuse to believe you like your private health insurance. I assume you're grateful to have it, but it makes no sense when the resources for a universal system are there and not being taken advantage of.

but there are many ways to reach universal healthcare. government takeover of the medical profession is not the only one.

Like? What other power is going to tell capitalism no? Revolutionary power?

what interests are those? and i don't know about the cases she prosecuted, honestly.

She rejected criminal justice reform every step of the way as a prosecutor and is now turning around and supporting it because of the way the tide has turned and electability reasons, for example. She jailed mothers for their children's truancy. How can anyone trust her?

anyway i guess you never read about comissars and informant networks and gulags under communism.

I have, I know a lot about that stuff. I never said I want to replicate early 20th century Russia, just that Lenin and his writings are very influential for modern day leftists and that it's more complicated than "lenin bad man!!!".

"progressive" rule means big government, which means a big law enforcement apparatus. from the car that drives around looking for unlicensed tv sets to the enformence of alcohol monopolies, price controls, etc., anything unsanctioned requires a cop. the bigger the government, the more prosecutors you need to prop up every rule.

i don't know if you realize you paradoxical position here.

I mean, I'm talking about fundamental change to a broken capitalist system. The idea that progressivism will lead to a huge police state is funny red scare nonsense considering the amount of surveillance and policing going on right now. It's a total red herring to present that as an obstacle to a fairer society for all. What up NSA.

i'm old enough to have seen the end of stalinism. why did the east germans need to corral people? lmao. please, man. when everything belongs to the government, the government belongs to the few and the elite, and the authoritarians are in charge. it is the logical conclusion of these theories. no amount of wordsmithing can change that.

What is the logical conclusion of capitalism? Make no mistake, capitalism cannot sustain itself forever and it seems that countries will either grasp onto socialism or fascism as the ball drops. Government already belongs to the few and the elite due to factors that capitalism has facilitated. Didn't we just have a scandal were elite schools are basically pay to play institutions for the rich? These people go on to high positions of power but without the cognitive ability to lead and emphasise with real problems.

i grew up in various latin american countries with various degrees of socialistic policies. they were all a fucking disgrace and only succeeded in distributing poverty and increasing corruption.

for a contemporary scenario just look at venezuela. please.

You're not going to agree with me but there has never even been a true socialist state! Lenin's end goal was to shift his party's autocratic position into a socialist state after seizing power. Whether you want to believe he would do that and whether that method is justifiable is up to you. I don't really have an opinion on that aspect of him. Venezuela seemed to suffer more due to capitalist world economics and American neo-imperialism than anything to do with socialism. I don't know any leftist who sees Venezuela's case as anything other than an empty "BUT WHAT ABOUT" rebuttal used by bad faith right wingers.

the foremost fiction is that they are FREE, of course. there is no such thing as free goods and services. everything must be paid for. we have unlimited desires, but limited resources which has alternative uses. so every economic choice is a tradeoff. the tradeoff is the cost.

if you begin from the fallacy of free good an services, and no scarcity, and no tradeoffs, you're just operating in fantasy space.

Again, a lot of other countries have these things. They are subsidised greatly by the government through fair and proper taxation. I don't see how this is a fantasy. I would never trade the NHS with private health insurance and no one who lives here under a universal system would either.

see, this is what you need to know what you're talking about before making up "theories".

the guy who makes little money actually receives taxpayer-funded healthcare through the government. obacamare actually forces you into medicaid when you don't make enough. so this imaginary person with his gofundme you're talking about is already receiving berniecare.

i actually know actual real cancer patients who get cancer treatment this way and they don't have gofundmes.

Here's what I found (and already knew) with a quick google search:
GoFundMe CEO: One-Third of Site's Donations Are to Cover Medical Costs

People Are Raising $650 Million On GoFundMe Each Year To Attack Rising Healthcare Costs

"But the big business of GoFundMe is now medical bills. Since the company’s founding in 2010, it reports having raised $5 billion. Of that, a third went to the 250,000 medical campaigns the site conducts annually. Simple multiplication suggests that the number of people who have sought help has run into the millions."

Just because you have not met cancer patients who have had to resort to desperate measures to get help does not mean that there aren't MILLIONS out there who are just shit out of luck from no fault of their own. This is just one tiny sliver example of the many issues that a for profit system generates.

good luck selling "scandinavian system" to america. i don't think the culture is there, and i don't think that people will like the tradeoffs once they actually experience them.

getting mandatory health insurance is hard enough. government takeover of the health industry-- many will hold their noses and vote for trump.

so we'll see how that goes. show me something solid and some figures instead of rhetoric. but i know that printing infinite money *does not work.* give everyone 'free dollars" and inflation ensues. good luck decreeing price controls to control inflation, lol. we'll all start paying with swiss franc or yen.

I don't think it's there yet but it's changing. Studies show that a large percentage of young people engage more with socialism politically than anything else now, and that's because they have grown up in a capitalist world and haven't (and will probably never) see any of the benefits that their parents were given. I wonder if anyone didn't like the "trade off" when national health systems were implemented in other countries? No, people cherish their free healthcare and fight for it everyday away from the hands of right-wingers that want to sell it bit by bit to the private sector. The NHS was one of the best things Britain ever implemented and was done during the post-war economic downturn. Why implement it during tough non-economically viable times? Because anthropological studies were done and the health disparity between the rich and the poor were so obvious and unjust that it was the right and dignified thing to do. Many can hold their nose all they want but it's the right and dignified thing to do.

shit. i didn't know the IRA was active again. or was it a prank? damn...

Nah it was part of a huge bomb scare epidemic that happened that day. Multiple universities and hospitals were effected.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

I mean, you can enjoy those many freedoms in other countries but with an added social safety net. Though I refuse to believe you like your private health insurance. I assume you're grateful to have it, but it makes no sense when the resources for a universal system are there and not being taken advantage of.

what is "universal" to you. "it comes from the universe"? blanco please! stop lying!

my private insurance is great. one year when things went to shit with my business obamacare forced me into medicare. i refused and refused but eventually tried and... it was a fucking joke! they kept putting me in and taking me out of it.

at the same time they took the catastrophic health insurance plans off the table.

so the government actually placed me in health insurance limbo

TRUE STORY

Originally Posted by Derek

Like? What other power is going to tell capitalism no? Revolutionary power?

consumer choice tells capitalism no and yes and maybe every day.

what limits consumer choice is government meddling in markets--at the behest of existing market players of course. like when the gubmint took away my catastrophic $200/month plan and gave me some fake medicaid i never wanted.

Originally Posted by Derek

She rejected criminal justice reform every step of the way as a prosecutor and is now turning around and supporting it because of the way the tide has turned and electability reasons, for example. She jailed mothers for their children's truancy. How can anyone trust her?

ok so this government that jails mothers and shoots black people is who you want to run the health care system? lmfao

Originally Posted by Derek

I have, I know a lot about that stuff. I never said I want to replicate early 20th century Russia, just that Lenin and his writings are very influential for modern day leftists and that it's more complicated than "lenin bad man!!!".

lenin had a lot of good intentions, but like all absolutists he fucked up

Originally Posted by Derek

I mean, I'm talking about fundamental change to a broken capitalist system. The idea that progressivism will lead to a huge police state is funny red scare nonsense considering the amount of surveillance and policing going on right now. What up NSA.

so are you talking about a social safety net or a "fundamental change"? you got me confused now

Originally Posted by Derek

What is the logical conclusion of capitalism? Make no mistake, capitalism cannot sustain itself forever and it seems that countries will either grasp onto socialism or fascism as the ball drops. Government already belongs to the few and the elite due to factors that capitalism has facilitated. Didn't we just have a scandal were elite schools are basically pay to play institutions for the rich? These people go on to high positions of power but without the cognitive ability to lead and emphasise with real problems.

i don't know the logical conclusion because i'm not looking for it. i do not presume to deduce the ultimate goal of history like a marxist. capitalism is doing great lifting billions out of misery in a way that no utopian absolutist ever could (they inflicted misery instead).

as for the elite schools... any system where connections rule over performance is going to be corrupt. in socialism where everyone is "equal money", political connections are the real currency.

i prefer to pay with money, thanks.

Originally Posted by Derek

You're not going to agree with me but there has never even been a true socialist state! Lenin's end goal was to shift his party's autocratic position into a socialist state after seizing power. Whether you want to believe he would do that and whether that method is justifiable is up to you. Venezuela seemed to suffer more due to capitalist world economics and American neo-imperialism than anything to do with socialism. I don't know any leftist who sees Venezuela's case as anything other than an empty "BUT WHAT ABOUT" rebuttal.

yes yes same as the libertarians. "we've never had true libertarianism!"

lmao. pipe dreams.

like i said above (i was editing, maybe you didn't see) i spent nearly a year in a kibbutz. as ideal as socialism gets.

they recently added some capitalist fixes and stopped hemorraghing people

Originally Posted by Derek

Again, a lot of other countries have these things. They are subsidised greatly by the government through fair and proper taxation. I don't see how this is a fantasy. I would never trade the NHS with private health insurance and no one who lives here under a universal system would either.

keep your government-rationed health care and i'll keep my insurance-rationed health care. you're going to have rationing either way. i'll have a private room, you'll be in a ward. i'll get attention tomorrow, you'll get it in 9 to 12 months.

Originally Posted by Derek

Here's what I found (and already knew) with a quick google search:
GoFundMe CEO: One-Third of Site's Donations Are to Cover Medical Costs

People Are Raising $650 Million On GoFundMe Each Year To Attack Rising Healthcare Costs

"But the big business of GoFundMe is now medical bills. Since the company’s founding in 2010, it reports having raised $5 billion. Of that, a third went to the 250,000 medical campaigns the site conducts annually. Simple multiplication suggests that the number of people who have sought help has run into the millions."

250k campaigns a year for 8 years that's 2 million campaigns.

like i said before, a lot of people remain uninsured because obamacare did not go far enough and/or it actually raised their premiums.

again, i'll take the swiss model over your national army.

Originally Posted by Derek

Just because you have not met cancer patients who have had to resort to desperate measures to get help does not mean that there aren't MILLIONS out there who are just shit out of luck from no fault of their own. This is just one tiny sliver example of the many issues that a for profit system generates.

everyone dies in the end. me, you, and everyone we know. there is no amount of non-profit that can prevent this. we can only choose to allocate limited resources which have alternative uses. this is a fact of life and nature and governments are subject to it as well.

even non-money scenarios are subject to these limitations. we always have to choose and we have limits.

Originally Posted by Derek

I don't think it's there yet but it's changing. Studies show that a large percentage of young people engage more with socialism politically than anything else now, and that's because they have grown up in a capitalist world and haven't (and will probably never) see any of the benefits that their parents were given. I wonder if anyone didn't like the "trade off" when national health systems were implemented in other countries? No, people cherish their free healthcare and fight for it everyday away from the hands of right-wingers that want to sell it bit by bit to the private sector. Many can hold their nose all they want but it's the right and dignified thing to do.

yeah, they've engaged with socialism in books and speeches. i've engaged it in the flesh. not again, thanks.

Originally Posted by Derek

Nah it was part of a huge bomb scare epidemic that happened that day. Multiple universities and hospitals were effected.

ah shit...

[Derek]

We could probs go back and forth all day on this hahah. You seem to struggle with the idea that socialism of the new does not need to be like socialism of the past. If you had free healthcare you wouldn't need to think of healthcare plans like, at all? It's not this airy fairy idea, god. Disregarding the far left chatter for a sec, the healthcare issue has literally been solved by making it free and paying for it through sliding scale taxation. What about this is so crazy? The USA is 37th (!) in the World Health Organization's ranking of the world's healthcare systems yet it is the most powerful nation on earth. You guys are behind a lot of countries with a lot less economic power. How is this okay to you? Do you think it matters that people in your very wealthy country have no health insurance and die penniless? I just don't get it man.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

We could probs go back and forth all day on this hahah. You seem to struggle with the idea that socialism of the new does not need to be like socialism of the past. If you had free healthcare you wouldn't need to think of healthcare plans like, at all? It's not this airy fairy idea, god. Disregarding the far left chatter for a sec, the healthcare issue has literally been solved by making it free and paying for it through sliding scale taxation. What about this is so crazy? The USA is 37th (!) in the World Health Organization's ranking of the world's healthcare systems yet it is the most powerful nation on earth. You guys are behind a lot of countries with a lot less economic power. How is this okay to you? Do you think it matters that people in your very wealthy country have no health insurance and die penniless? I just don't get it man.

THERE IS NO FREE HEALTH CARE

STOP LYING

[Derek]

Okay then, continue on with your tragic, horrific healthcare system that devastates millions of lives all for the profit of a few.

[!@#$%!]

and i am very much for fixing america's health care failures, but i don't think a wholesale government takeover is the way to go.

i am actually for a VOLUNTARY public option. let those who want expanded medicaid pay for it. let every type of service fund itself.

[Derek]

I mean, if you want private health insurance in the UK you can have it. It's not forbidden, there are private hospitals here too. Still doesn't mean that the national health service isn't justified.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

Okay then, continue on with your tragic, horrific healthcare system that devastates millions of lives all for the profit of a few.

STOP LYING MAN

you're setting up fake oppositions between imaginary "free" lies and disaster.

your health care is not free. everyone pays a lot of money for it.

[Derek]

Well maybe it's right that everyone pays into the service that so benefits their lives (and saves them). The thing is that even if you can only pay a little, you still get the right to healthcare as a person with dignity who will get sick sometimes. What's wrong with that? Not to mention that it's a proven fact that poverty and poor health are linked greatly. Unless you're just bitter that you've done well for yourself and have to pay a bit more than others for the betterment of the country's most vulnerable? That's honestly the only stance I can take mentally that could justify thinking for profit healthcare is a better alternative.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

I mean, if you want private health insurance in the UK you can have it. It's not forbidden, there are private hospitals here too. Still doesn't mean that the national health service isn't justified.

i don't know. weren't they in trouble recently? what do the swiss have to say about your system?

the question LIKE EVERY TRADEOFF is: is it worth the money you pay for it?

--

see, taxes are neither free nor unlimited. they're a drag on the economy. yes, in turn they provide a public benefit. too little taxes, you get no public services too much taxes, the economy slows down and your revenue is actually smaller.

figuring out tax rates requires a fine touch.

at the same time, just because you're getting tax revenues it doesn't meant they are unlimited. you always have to choose. you have to ration. these are hard questions. if you could save a baby's life by letting 10 adults die, would you do it? what about 2 adults? how much is it reasonable to spend on any one patient?

[Derek]

Weren't they in trouble recently? I dunno, that's vague. The UK is two places ahead of Switzerland in WHO's rankings of the world's healthcare systems and nearly all of the positions ahead of the UK are countries with a national health service. You can rhetoric it all up yourself like you said I was doing, but the evidence is all on my side.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

Well maybe it's right that everyone pays into the service that so benefits their lives (and saves them). The thing is that even if you can only pay a little, you still get the right to healthcare as a person with dignity who will get sick sometimes. What's wrong with that? Not to mention that it's a proven fact that poverty and poor health are linked greatly. Unless you're just bitter that you've done well for yourself and have to pay a bit more than others for the betterment of the country's most vulnerable? That's honestly the only stance I can take mentally that could justify thinking for profit healthcare is a better alternative.

but we all do pay for the most vulnerable!!!

the gofund mes that you find are probably from middle class people who refused to take out insurance. 2 million beggar campaigns in 8 years, but still 20 million a year refuse to buy insurance or simply can't because premiums went up after obamacare.

but like i already said, ***really poor people get medicaid already***
**poor people in america get "free" (as you like to call it) government health care***

so that's already in place.

i am not "doing well for myself" nor "bitter". i live on very little, but i simply accept that life has tradeoffs. i know there is no pie in the sky so i am not asking for a slice. YOUR HEAVENLY PIE IS LIES.

[Derek]

Refer to my post last page 4 ur response.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

Weren't they in trouble recently? I dunno, that's vague. The UK is two places ahead of Switzerland in WHO's rankings of the world's healthcare systems and nearly all of the positions ahead of the UK are countries with a national health service. You can rhetoric it all up yourself like you said I was doing, but the evidence is all on my side.

last i heard it was crumbling. please show me the stats
this is a random google
not even top 10
https://fr.april-international.com/e...thcare-systems
18
https://www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/
18
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian...ealth-systems/
the experts like the swiss and french
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...y-bracket.html

etc.

yes the american system NO DOUBT needs fixing but there are better models than your national army and the proposals of demagogues of all stripes.

bernie is just like trump: all promises of "free" shit, and magical bullshit with no tradeoffs

[!@#$%!]

oh uk is top 10 in "efficiency" not quality.

[Derek]

How do those links invalidate what I'm saying about a national health service? The UK's healthcare system's issue is a lack of funding from the Tories as they keep taxes low for the obscenely wealthy and turn a blind eye to blatant offshore accounting by billionaires while they sell it off piece by piece to private companies for a huge profit that does not benefit anyone other than other obscenely wealthy people. Our healthcare system is getting worse because we are starting to follow YOUR model.


I repeat, the number one most powerful country in the world ranks 37th in healthcare.