[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

How do those links invalidate what I'm saying about a national health service? The UK's healthcare system's issue is a lack of funding from the Tories as they keep taxes low for the obscenely wealthy and turn a blind eye to blatant offshore accounting by billionaires while they sell it off piece by piece to private companies for a huge profit that does not benefit anyone other than other obscenely wealthy people. Our healthcare system is getting worse because we are starting to follow YOUR model.


I repeat, the number one most powerful country in the world ranks 37th in healthcare.

i think i remember your national health service was crumbling already in the 70s? they had tainted blood and it was a complete disgrace. no? it was all good?

anyway i hear you on the utter underperformance of the american system. i mean right now we have a measles epidemic because of a bunch of moronic antivaxxers. and these are not religious goober right wing types, these are crunchy granola organic vegan hippies from oregon

what you need to get through your head (lol) is that in a country of 325 million people who are not used to follow a lot of rules, the national health army plan has zero chance of passing.

this is not a little kingdom you can rule by decree and the people are going to say "yessir".

when you have 100 different cereals in the supermarket you can't tell people they can just have the federal government as a health care provider. it just won't fly. it's not culturally possible.

and when you tell people that shit is "free"... they fucking know better. they will ask "how much is this REALLY gonna cost me and what am i REALLY gonna get for it?"

the eu is 500 million people in 27 countries

the usa is 325 million people in 50 states plus various territories

try imposing one health system in europa and see what happens... i'm saying this so you understand the proportion and size of the problem

there are solutions, but anyone offering an easy solution is a fucking liar

[demonrail666]

The NHS is free at the point of use. Obviously it's paid for by taxes but isn't that just stating the obvious?

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

The NHS is free at the point of use. Obviously it's paid for by taxes but isn't that just stating the obvious?

“free at the point of use” means “costly at the point of supply”

that “free” means “taxes” or “already included in the price” is not obvious to a lot of innocents who believe you can just will things into existence without paying

or that “the billionaires” will magically pay for all

lol!

truly, economic illiteracy is hugely widespread

—

seriously. i know you get it but a lot of people don’t

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

that “free” means “taxes” or “already included in the price” is not obvious that a lot of innocents believe you can just will things into existence without paying

or that “the billionaires” will magically pay for all

I can't speak for the US but I'd be surprised if many people in the uk don't know that the NHS is funded by taxes. Certainly anyone with a job will know, if only cos it's listed as a deduction on their wage-slip. And even if they're unemployed, it's just something they know. Maybe it's different in America, but in this instance you weren't talking to an American.

[!@#$%!]

for example, the notion of “billionaires” and “taxes” and “corporations”

billionaires dont walk around with a lot of cash in their pockets.

they don’t “make billions” in income.

their billions are from ownership in successful companies. as markets have expanded globally, bringing more people into the economy, some fortunes have soared. yes some companies are hugely valued.

but these fortunes are in the VALUATION of these companies. it’s not free-floating cash.

if bezos right now needed to pay a billion dollars, he’d have to sell a bunch of stock, and the price of amazon would drop immediately. then held be out a billion. one-time deal.

“let’s tax the corporations” then

fine, tax the corporations... but since many corporations have to operate on thin profit margins due to fierce competition, then they have to make up for the tax burden by either
a) passing the cost increase along to the consumer, so the consumer pays the tax
b) cutting costs, which often means dumping employees, who now have to collect public assistance, so everybody else pays the tax
c) reducing profits, fucking over not just bezos, but also the fixed income crowd and pensioners. sorry grandpa, go back to work! and so, retirees pay the tax.

so there, the consumer and the worker and the old people end up paying for the MAGICAL TAX INCREASE on businesses.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I can't speak for the US but I'd be surprised if many people in the uk don't know that the NHS is funded by taxes. Certainly anyone with a job will know, if only cos it's listed as a deduction on their wage-slip. And even if they're unemployed, it's just something they know. Maybe it's different in America, but in this instance you weren't talking to an American.

i dont know what taxes derek pays or if he is aware of the cost of “free” health care. it’s taxpayer funded healthcare so it should be called that.

but how tasty it says to say in a rally “free healthcare! free education!” and the crowd roars (i’ve done it actually)

and oh, or else paid by billionaires. except it isn’t as i showed above. it’s the middle class that gets fucked. the consumer, the worker, and the retiree.

[!@#$%!]

this is the kind of stuff that happens when corporations underperform

https://www.michigancapitolconfident...-pension-funds

“oopsie” i guess. fortunately some of the people quoted understand tradeoffs

but hey LET’S KILL THE CORPORATIONS! our children will support us in our old age. lmfao

[Bytor Peltor]

Oh no, we need the Supreme Court and Term Limits.

Eight years for the House and Senate and possibly Ten for the Supreme Court.

We don’t need lifelong politicians......serve four years -win reelection- serve four more years and go home......and you can’t become a lobbyist!!!

Originally Posted by Derek

The best solution would be to abolish the supreme court entirely. And the senate. Actually I think you guys need to redo everything from scratch, sorry.

[Derek]

Trump supporters and socialists will never be on the same side. We are on complete opposite sides. Socialists are also not on the side of the political center, we are on the side of socialism.

The election of Trump was not a "revolution", he is a right wing demagogue of which there are many of in history. Just none as funny and as stupid as him, admittedly. I dunno, Bolsonaro tweeted "what is a golden shower?" so maybe give him some time to show what a brainless oaf he is. Neither is AOC's rise, she (and Bernie and others) is just the beginning of further left change.

[Skuj]

Ladies and Gentlemen, The President Of The United States Of America:

"Spreading the fake and totally discredited Dossier “is unfortunately a very dark stain against John McCain.” Ken Starr, Former Independent Counsel. He had far worse “stains” than this, including thumbs down on repeal and replace after years of campaigning to repeal and replace!"

(Trump was never qualified to lick McCain's shoes. There was no "replace" plan, and that's why McCain did the right thing. Oh, and btw, McCain is dead, so he cannot defend himself now, can he?)

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Derek

Trump supporters and socialists will never be on the same side. We are on complete opposite sides. Socialists are also not on the side of the political center, we are on the side of socialism.

The election of Trump was not a "revolution", he is a right wing demagogue of which there are many of in history. Just none as funny and as stupid as him, admittedly. I dunno, Bolsonaro tweeted "what is a golden shower?" so maybe give him some time to show what a brainless oaf he is. Neither is AOC's rise, she (and Bernie and others) is just the beginning of further left change.

beware of socialist health care man...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/17/w...core-ios-share

yep. power is its own currency. that’s how they roll.

[Derek]

As if you are gonna convince me that I'm wrong! Healthcare 4 ALL!!

[!@#$%!]

g

Originally Posted by Derek

As if you are gonna convince me that I'm wrong! Healthcare 4 ALL!!

ah yes, who needs evidence and reason when you can have magical chants?

you’re smarter than this, well, shit, i was also smarter than that but used to hold similar beliefs once upon a time. unfortunately i was ignorant and had been bamboozled by power lusty collectivists who offered “not the same thing as before”. so i wasnt a commie but i thought there was “some way”. it failed of course.

hahahahaaaa.

hey, do you remember sandinismo? have you seen daniel ortega lately?

haaaahaaaahaaaa.

that mother fucker. hanging on to power just like all the other power lusty authoritarians. pig walking on 2 legs.

and you make fun of bolsonaro (an eejit) but forget it was lula/rouseff/temer’s corruption and mismanagement who brought him to power.

yes yes, “this time won’t be like last time”, yes. lolol. same fucking broken record. same thing since 1917.

anyway, in my state of new mexico we’re working hard at actually providing health care for all, and lowering costs, while also preserving consumer choice.

we have expanded medicaid (it sucks, massive bureaucracy, but better than nothing), and 40% of residents are already enrolled in it.

we have community health centers (these are great, i used to just pay out of pocket, cheap), we have obamacare health exchanges for individuals, we have employer-provided health plans, and we have the indian health service for federally recognized tribes.

since obamacare was implemented the uninsured rate was cut in half, we now have 9% left without insurance, but people who receive treaty-funded medical care at the indian health service don’t actually need insurance.

although the ihs encourages their constituents to get insurance, there are many exemptions, and in practice most people are exempt from the insurance requirement or any copays. i havent researched the math but i know first hand mega-numbers of people that depend on ihs alone, so, they are “uninsured”, but they get treaty-funded healthcare, free at the point of service. visits, meds, vaccinations, hospitalizations, pregnancies, everything.

ihs is not the best quality, but depending where you are it can be pretty decent. santa fe ihs is fucking nice for primary care.

there is also a large number of undocumented immigrants who are not eligible for medicaid expansion so that goest towards that 9%.

but there is also now a bill in the works to let people buy into medicare expansion voluntarily.

of course all of that is not reducible to a basic chant hahahaha. who needs policy, and economics, and statistics, and reason, when you can fix all of messy reality with chants?

voluntarupurchaseofmedicaodexpansion NOW!!!

[Skuj]

Ladies And Gentlemen, The President Of The United States Of America, Donald Whitehouse:

"Joe Biden got tongue tied over the weekend when he was unable to properly deliver a very simple line about his decision to run for President. Get used to it, another low I.Q. individual!"

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

g
ah yes, who needs evidence and reason when you can have magical chants?

you’re smarter than this, well, shit, i was also smarter than that but used to hold similar beliefs once upon a time. unfortunately i was ignorant and had been bamboozled by power lusty collectivists who offered “not the same thing as before”. so i wasnt a commie but i thought there was “some way”. it failed of course.

hahahahaaaa.

hey, do you remember sandinismo? have you seen daniel ortega lately?

haaaahaaaahaaaa.

that mother fucker. hanging on to power just like all the other power lusty authoritarians. pig walking on 2 legs.

and you make fun of bolsonaro (an eejit) but forget it was lula/rouseff/temer’s corruption and mismanagement who brought him to power.

yes yes, “this time won’t be like last time”, yes. lolol. same fucking broken record. same thing since 1917.

anyway, in my state of new mexico we’re working hard at actually providing health care for all, and lowering costs, while also preserving consumer choice.

we have expanded medicaid (it sucks, massive bureaucracy, but better than nothing), and 40% of residents are already enrolled in it.

we have community health centers (these are great, i used to just pay out of pocket, cheap), we have obamacare health exchanges for individuals, we have employer-provided health plans, and we have the indian health service for federally recognized tribes.

since obamacare was implemented the uninsured rate was cut in half, we now have 9% left without insurance, but people who receive treaty-funded medical care at the indian health service don’t actually need insurance.

although the ihs encourages their constituents to get insurance, there are many exemptions, and in practice most people are exempt from the insurance requirement or any copays. i havent researched the math but i know first hand mega-numbers of people that depend on ihs alone, so, they are “uninsured”, but they get treaty-funded healthcare, free at the point of service. visits, meds, vaccinations, hospitalizations, pregnancies, everything.

ihs is not the best quality, but depending where you are it can be pretty decent. santa fe ihs is fucking nice for primary care.

there is also a large number of undocumented immigrants who are not eligible for medicaid expansion so that goest towards that 9%.

but there is also now a bill in the works to let people buy into medicare expansion voluntarily.

of course all of that is not reducible to a basic chant hahahaha. who needs policy, and economics, and statistics, and reason, when you can fix all of messy reality with chants?

voluntarupurchaseofmedicaodexpansion NOW!!!

Ah yes, who needs evidence when so many countries have a successful national health service "But muh Venezuela, muh Brazil". Like they're the only countries with them and that their problems aren't because of a whole host of reasons.

Face it, your country has a shitty system envied by literally no other country.

[Rob Instigator]

"medical care" in the USA is dictated by what lying, cheating, con-artist insurance companies wish to cover, so as to make their bottom line be fat for their shareholders.


It is BRUTAL. The USA is a place where the sup[er rich get illegal medicine with no repercussions, while the desperately needy are forced to prove they are worthy of charity and kindness.


to the super rich, health insurance works like a credit card. They rack up bills and pay it off no problem. for someone making $8/hour, paying a $200 deductible just to get some antibiotics is a motherucker.


the insurance scam is the hugest pyramid scheme in operation today, apart from teh stock market.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

"medical care" in the USA is dictated by what lying, cheating, con-artist insurance companies wish to cover, so as to make their bottom line be fat for their shareholders.


It is BRUTAL. The USA is a place where the sup[er rich get illegal medicine with no repercussions, while the desperately needy are forced to prove they are worthy of charity and kindness.


to the super rich, health insurance works like a credit card. They rack up bills and pay it off no problem. for someone making $8/hour, paying a $200 deductible just to get some antibiotics is a motherucker.


the insurance scam is the hugest pyramid scheme in operation today, apart from teh stock market.

$8/h deductible wat? oh yeah the state of texas didnt expand medicaid with obamacare lololo.

you do live in the worst place.

[Derek]

Dude, I literally gave you tons of evidence and reason for a national health service when we went back and forth. To imply otherwise after I got bored of the argument is sooooo disingenuous. You only gave me bad faith strawman arguments back that didn't undercut the point of what I was saying most of the time, unless some random NYT article about the Swiss health service being the BEST is supposed to convince me otherwise (oh wait, Switzerland is only ranked 20th on healthcare in the world lol).

I didn't pull my feelings on the world out of my ass yesterday, I've lived with this healthcare system my whole life and I pity people who have to deal with the American healthcare system more today than I ever have.

Also, I'll copy and paste this a few times so you can't ignore it:
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE
AMERICA IS THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE WORLD YET RANKS 37th FOR HEALTHCARE

Seriously, WHY do you think that is? And don't give me some bullshit about "hmmm well inflation in 1978 led to a collapse of insurance premiums and blah blah". No, it's because your for profit health system DOES NOT WORK. The evidence, reason and logic in this argument is not on your side, sorry.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

Ah yes, who needs evidence when so many countries have a successful national health service "But muh Venezuela, muh Brazil". Like they're the only countries with them and that their problems aren't because of a whole host of reasons.

Face it, your country has a shitty system envied by literally no other country.

see this is what you continue to fail to understand

this is not a monolithic country. there are many systems operating at once.

yes, it definitely needs fixing in places.

but “socialism” is not the fix

and chants can’t supplant reason

[Skuj]

I'm terribly confused. We all know that USA Health Care is a complete fucking mess. (I live in Canada. Lucky me.) We can argue all day about this, but Obama at least tried to so something. Trump has only tried to kill what Obama did - what are Trump's grand ideas on this file again?