[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I know !@£$%$£@! disagrees with me about this but I strongly believe that coaching (ie work done on the training ground) isn't nearly as important in national tournaments as some managers (like Klinsmann) seem to claim. National teams need managing far more than they need coaching, and IMO Klinsmann is a coach not a manager. And as a coach he'll never have enough time with his squad to do much with them at a tactical level. What national teams need more than great tacticians is great man managers. People who can select the right players for the unique demands of tournament football, play everyone where they work best, build and maintain a great team spirit and keep things simple, so everyone knows exactly what they have to do. Klinsmann fails in those areas because he's a coach in a role that really requires a manager.

might have disagreed with you, cant' remember in what exact terms, before but this makes plenty sense right now

maybe klinsmann makes a better technical director of U.S.-sucker than national team manager.

the thing is he's using the national tem as the carrot in his technical direction-- "do what i ask and you'll get a spot in my team".

hey, ancelotti is available...

[!@#$%!]

ps- watching the usa jamaica right now and until 30' when jamaica scores its first usa looking better, attacking a lot, johansson looking lively, just a lot of missed chances.

jamaican goal looks weirdly unmarked and guzan as light on his feet as a sack of potatoes gets a weird header lobbed past him.

if the goal was to win this tournament, where was howard? enough with the fucking break.

and yep, 5 minutes later, bam. from a free kick. the usmnt needs hope solo!

==

@ halftime, usa got a bit rattled after the 2nd goal but did not quit. it still looks to me like a better and more interesting team than any coach bradley dullfest.

the thing is this jamaica is pretty talented as concacaf teams go. maybe the kick mexico's ass this weekend and shut everybody up about how they're not supposed to.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

the usmnt needs hope solo!

Don't we all?

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

hey, ancelotti is available...

I don't see him going for it yet but I reckon Klopp would be an ideal national team manager. His tactical limitations wouldn't be so significant and he could build a team with real spirit without the constant threat of having it broken up. And I think the US public would absolutely adore him. Looks increasingly like you simply got the wrong Jurgen.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Looks increasingly like you simply got the wrong Jurgen.

ha ha ha. team looks good so far though, in spite of the score.

hope solo to brad guzan: you're too fat to be an athlete

(this is what she actually said to her little cousin before beating the crap out of him-- true story)

==

2nd half usa comes out strong, johanson/dempsey/bradley score, then johansson misses a clear clear header rebound from free kick.

he should be made starter forever instead of injury-prone and moon-afflicted jozy. i mean jozy is great when he's on but his unpredictable. crown johansson and just work him steadily from now on.

there's also a man with a bleach-blond skunk-style hairdo who's pretty competent. name with a Z...

this team is fine... just needs a limpia. and a consistent lineup. and tim howard.

bradley alsmost scores again! they could have won this with a bit more luck-- consistenly many more shots to goal.

now dempsey almost scores lol.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ha ha ha. team looks good so far though, in spite of the score.

hope solo to brad guzan: you're too fat to be an athlete

(this is what she actually said to her little cousin before beating the crap out of him-- true story)

Well at least when her playing career's over she'll have a great future as a dominatrix.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

!@#$! you misunderstand what the concept of "identity" is.. it has nothing to do with history or legacies, its about the style of play, strengths and weaknesses, and other characteristics of SINGLE rosters for any given season. It is based off each individual roster situations. It can fluctuate. Every good team develops an identity together and build success off it.

USMNT has had several "identities" over the years but Klinsmann team has never developed one. I mean, who are they? What do they do consistently? Under Boring Bradley they were a defense first squad that could generate a lot of set pieces and score off that. You knew who would consistently be in the roster and what those players could do. With the near constant roster changes and playing players out of their strongest positions the only identity US seems to have is that they don't have one. They are like a constant surprise, completely unpredictable.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Well at least when her playing career's over she'll have a great future as a dominatrix.

 

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

!@#$! you misunderstand what the concept of "identity" is.. it has nothing to do with history or legacies, its about the style of play, strengths and weaknesses, and other characteristics of SINGLE rosters for any given season. It is based off each individual roster situations. It can fluctuate. Every good team develops an identity together and build success off it.

USMNT has had several "identities" over the years but Klinsmann team has never developed one. I mean, who are they? What do they do consistently? Under Boring Bradley they were a defense first squad that could generate a lot of set pieces and score off that. You knew who would consistently be in the roster and what those players could do. With the near constant roster changes and playing players out of their strongest positions the only identity US seems to have is that they don't have one. They are like a constant surprise, completely unpredictable.

we have words for that already, such as

-playing style

-tactical system

no need to speak "in your own words"

--

looks to me usa has a better tactical system now. they play much better. they pass, they build up play, they press. they're just facing 2 tough opponents in this match:

1) an improved battle-tested jamaica fresh from 3 copa américa opponents stronger than any concacafo

2) sheer misfortune. they've missed some unbelievable opportunities and conceded at least one stupid one. shit happens in sports.

on, sorry, that was 3

3) a fat brad guzan

--

eta: identity vs. tactical system.

italy in the 60s developed a very strong defensive system known as catenaccio ("deadbolt"). at least since then (probably earlier, i don't know the history of italian football in the 50s) italian football has been known for great defense and great defenders. so that's part of their "identity" and long history. you think "italian football" and you think "good defense"

nevertheless, italians have been using different tactical systems for a long time now, like "zona mista" (still strong defense), and catenaccio is a thing of the past. but see, prandelli had some initial good success in recent years with a more attacking style-- he eventually flopped but that's another story.

tactical systems need to evolve and adapt with the times. klinsi's overhaul was long overdue. can't win a lot waiting for corner kicks-- that's really too much of a passive approach.

--

another:

argentina has given the world many skilled players. their passing style is an old tradition, used to be called "la nuestra" ("our way") since probably the origin of time (ha). so that would be their "identity". just like english football and their legendary physical intensity, argentina has great passing and brilliant players.

nevertheless, first argentinian club estudiantes de la plata and then coach carlos bilardo used their "pincharratas" anti-futbol tactics to win respectively the intercontinental cup in 68 and the world cup in 86. yep. the rat-pokers/stabbers. tactics designed to grind down the opponent-- they'd do shit like poke them with needles, i swear. lots of defense, lots of dirty play, some flash of brilliance, but horrible game.

googletranslate this & see

http://www.taringa.net/posts/deporte...ncharrata.html

[!@#$%!]

k-- back to the live/repeat commentary-- who is the gordon who came in for johansson and why? and where is jozy? injured? hmmmm

--

bradley misses another shot, corner, zardoz misses

gordon soft shot easy stopped.

bedoya out yedlin in. i like yedlin. let's see...

...

dempsey nice try, jamaica counter... first danger in a long time

--

oh shit jozy was sent home ha ha... damn

http://www.mlssoccer.com/goldcup/201...nockout-rounds

---

usa still playing better. has possession, has control, don't know what else can they do except SCORE.

..

jamaica has stared dangerous counters now that usa is more desperately pressing forward. could become 3-1 (though we already now that score)

..


guzan butterfingers barely catches. nice american counter but poor cross.

what has gordon added since coming in? nothing.

jamaica defending very well. as they did with argentina.

... well, shit, that was it

a german coach beats a german coach lololol

eta

-don't know what yedlin contributed over bedoya

-beckermann is old

-clint is still great but getting older

-what good is gordon? might as well keep jozy

-guzan is fat and slow. we need a better keeper.

-johansson lively but missed some clear chances needs hypnotherapy

-zardoz a good surprise

-oh, where was julian green? --> apparently given a break so he can salvage his career at bayern
http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2...rg-u-23-match/
http://www.mlssoccer.com/goldcup/201...green-gold-cup
http://www.bavarianfootballworks.com...-bayern-munich

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Yes, im glad you are engaging in a conversation. Identity is an "American" sports thing, i used ito describe an American team, thanks for clarifying more appropriate nomenclature. Was that so hard now?

As to US falling to bad luck, im just not buying it. Ive seen every USMNT game since the last Gold Cup, there has just been too much inconsistency. No body liked or supported Klinsmann more than i did, but i just don't see progress that is soley a product of Klinsmann that couldn't be duplicated if not improved by a different manager.

What seems very clear now is that Jurgen is doing a "rebuild" and making a lot of sacrifices in the short term to build something long term. However that is a philosophy i just don't agree with for this level of sport. That works for a league team, but national teams are essentially "all-star" teams, so it should be a "reload" not a "rebuild".. Jurgen seems to be building for 2018 by low pro removing all the veteran talent. Again, that is fine at a league level but why sacrifice the better talent? I mean, he keeps fielding inexperienced rosters in HUGE games! Tonk in the friendlies or some qualifiers, but not in tournament play!!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

About Bedoya, he still coming off a knee injury so they try to sub him out. Jozy is recovering from that WC injury still, but he played well in the group stage this Gold Cup. He either was sent home because (a) he aggravated the injury and they keeping it hush hush (b) US team got cocky and throught they didn't need him.even when the WC PROVED just how much he is necessary or (c) Jurgen did some Landon shit and snubbed him.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Yes, im glad you are engaging in a conversation. Identity is an "American" sports thing, i used ito describe an American team

It's not an American thing at all. Lots of football teams have an identity if they're identified with a specific kind of play or a general attitude. There's actually a debate in England going on right now about whether the English team has lost its sense of identity. We used to be known for a very fast, direct, hard style that's been sidelined in recent years as we've tried to adapt to a more sophisticated 'continental' style of play. It's why someone like John Terry is described as a 'classic' English Centre Back. I definitely think the US had an identity under Bradley. They were very well organised, if a bit one-dimensional, probably to compensate for their lack of individual flair players. They were (and to a degree still are) seen as being very fair (ie no diving, etc) and sometimes thought of as being a bit naive as a result. An identity can refer to tactics but also to attitude. Costa Rica are getting a reputation for being really dirty so that becomes part of their identity. Mourinho teams are identified with taking everything to the limit, Fergie's Man U were identified by their never-say-die spirit. Some people might choose to use a different word but they're ultimately talking about the same thing.

[!@#$%!]

eh, made no sense and it was irritating, but let's not get hanged up on that & move forward.

i agree totally with nailing down a good team before an important tournament. unless your goal is to use the tournament as a prep, like mexico and jamaica did at copa américa (mexico clearly relaxed after their brilliant chile match).

but see, copa américa is also only a waystation for south american teams-- the real goal is the world cup. that's what everyone drools after.

one weirdness of this concacaf cup was that you could replace 6 players mid-tournament. hence jozy was sent home. wtf? it invites this kind of shuffling. ridiculous.

but yes, some coaches fuck too much with lineups. guardiola as you've read here repeatedly has been doing that at bayern. put lahm as midfielder and gets an inferior right back in rafinha then other teams score easy. all sorts of schemes and formations. sometimes they're lost in space.

with klinsmann i understood the shuffling was supposed to lead somewhere-- a filtering, a selection. they had some decent victories against holland and germany. it's definitely going somewhere in terms of style. they look better.

now this game i just watched, they were good, they were better even, but they couldn't score---

not being able to score is of course not just "luck"-- it also comes down to understanding (or a lack of it) between players-- knowing where your teammate is, what are his instincts, what foot he favors, etc. and without constant practice and a consistent lineup it's going to be fucked up.

so yeah, he needs to nail down the official squad already and start training that.

but i also think it's a good idea to get rid of old players. germany did that in 2010, failed, but then won the world cup in 2014 once the "utes" had matured.

why is beckermann a starter at 33? he won't play in 2018. he should be in the bench, let the new kids accrue some mileage.

anyway, he'd better come up with a solution fast. dempsey is indispensable right now but he's going to be 36 in 2018-- hardly the age to be a starter (unless you're totti)

and fuck, getting more and better enemies is a good thing. if jamaica stays good it will only be a good thing for USA-- a lack of competition makes one lazy and weak and complacent.

--

ETA
@ demonyo- i don't think of usa under bradley as an "identity". kinda like saying, "wow, that fetus sure has character!" it was basic kick-and-run boring-as-shit lame play. a team or nation has an identity if it develops a school, a philosophy, a tradition, a contribution to the game. it's not just about some temporary tactical plan. usa under bradley if anything was a non-entity. i'll take bruce arena's well-coordinated triangulations and intelligence over bradley's stubbon passivity any day.

ETA2

here's why arena is the best american coach to date
http://cornerofthegalaxy.com/2015/06...game-strategy/

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to demonrail666
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to !@#$%! again

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

That is my biggest beef with Jurgen, especially in and since the WC.. too much tinkering and too much gambling. I mean, snubs a healthy donovan, somehow loves an aging and declining Beckerman?? I loved beckerman yo... like in 2010!!

His rosters just are to wildly inconsistent and i feel that is why they haven't formed an identity and indeed lost the one

[demonrail666]

If the word 'identity is the stumbling block, I'll call it something else, but all I'm saying is that when I watched the USA under Bradley I got a real sense of what he wanted them to be. Yes it was passive, and stubborn but there was a coherent vision there, and while I can see why some might've found it a bit unambitious and certainly not that exciting, I actually enjoyed watching them. When I watch them under Klinsmann I don't see any sense of what he wants them to be. He obviously wants them to be successful but where's his method? He doesn't seem to be building anything concrete. And apart from anything else that makes it really hard for the players who won't know what's expected of them from one game to the next.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

when I watched the USA under Bradley I got a real sense of what he wanted them to be. Yes it was passive, and stubborn but there was a coherent vision there, and while I can see why some might've found it a bit unambitious and certainly not that exciting, I actually enjoyed watching them.

ah, funny thing, i didn't. 1+1 =2. 1+1=2. 1+1=2. it's coherent, but so very fucking boring.

to me he was a huge letdown after arena. he had more talent in his hand and yet accomplished less. it was like he didn't trust the players of being capable of more. no vision, a dead end.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

When I watch them under Klinsmann I don't see any sense of what he wants them to be. He obviously wants them to be successful but where's his method? He doesn't seem to be building anything concrete. And apart from anything else that makes it really hard for the players who won't know what's expected of them from one game to the next.

did you watch the jamaica game. i see a team that (as i said above) has possession, passes well, controls the game, and creates goalscoring opportunities instead of just waiting for them.

yes, it's not a tactical innovation, but it's the modern game, and it has more possibilities than waiting for a corner kick. he's following roughly in the pattern of the german transformation that let this generation be world champions. if he can give them some tactical flexibility it will be a huge step.

the usa does not have the same caliber of talent as germany, but if they can play a more interesting, more fun, more creative, more exciting game, then that's massive progress. beating cuba 6-0 was not a bad thing.

see if you can catch some torrent of that game. jamaica's goals were... stupid. really. they were major US fuckups. jamaica didn't score because they created either more, nor more dangerous chances. they had one dangerous chance in the first half, besides the stupid goals. they had a couple of dangerous counters in the last 5 minutes when USA was desperate. that was it.

the us attacked & attacked and they had at least 10 shots to goal. that they didn't score, as i said, was unfortunate. jamaica defends pretty well (and if you don't believe me watch the jamaica-argentina also) but they could have been beaten were it not for the massive fuckup of letting it be 2-0 for no good reason.

i've seen them and i believe. i do see an improvement. a big one. maybe those improvements need to be stamped into the team in the next 3 years and we'll see what happens.

look at what costa rica did at the world cup with sheer team cohesion. i think the usa can and will do better once the tinkering stops and the new structures/schemes get drilled into a regular lineup. playing possession is more complex than kick-and-run, but it can be learned and it will allow so much more. i definitely see progress.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to demonrail666 again.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ah, funny thing, i didn't. 1+1 =2. 1+1=2. 1+1=2. it's coherent, but so very fucking boring.

to me he was a huge letdown after arena. he had more talent in his hand and yet accomplished less. it was like he didn't trust the players of being capable of more. no vision, a dead end.



did you watch the jamaica game. i see a team that (as i said above) has possession, passes well, controls the game, and creates goalscoring opportunities instead of just waiting for them.

yes, it's not a tactical innovation, but it's the modern game, and it has more possibilities than waiting for a corner kick. he's following roughly in the pattern of the german transformation that let this generation be world champions. if he can give them some tactical flexibility it will be a huge step.

the usa does not have the same caliber of talent as germany, but if they can play a more interesting, more fun, more creative, more exciting game, then that's massive progress. beating cuba 6-0 was not a bad thing.

see if you can catch some torrent of that game. jamaica's goals were... stupid. really. they were major US fuckups. jamaica didn't score because they created either more, nor more dangerous chances. they had one dangerous chance in the first half, besides the stupid goals. they had a couple of dangerous counters in the last 5 minutes when USA was desperate. that was it.

the us attacked & attacked and they had at least 10 shots to goal. that they didn't score, as i said, was unfortunate. jamaica defends pretty well (and if you don't believe me watch the jamaica-argentina also) but they could have been beaten were it not for the massive fuckup of letting it be 2-0 for no good reason.

i've seen them and i believe. i do see an improvement. a big one. maybe those improvements need to be stamped into the team in the next 3 years and we'll see what happens.

look at what costa rica did at the world cup with sheer team cohesion. i think the usa can and will do better once the tinkering stops and the new structures/schemes get drilled into a regular lineup. playing possession is more complex than kick-and-run, but it can be learned and it will allow so much more. i definitely see progress.

I didn't see the Cuba game or the Jamaica one so fair enough in terms of what you say about how they played in those, and in seeing an overall improvement. I obviously can't comment there. Thing is the few games I have seen, some I've really enjoyed some I haven't, but they've all felt like experiments. And as you say in terms of Costa Rica, national teams benefit from cohesion, especially when they lack great individual talents.