[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

That is true, there is a proto-blues which predates elements of rag time music. I just used rag time because Eurocentric music buffs always try to say how rag time is some kind of synthesis of European and black American musics, ITS FUCKING NOT!

Rag time significantly predates Jazz in its origins in the 1880s.. Its the sheet music form of rag time that comes about in the early 20th century when it was more popularized into the mainstream by a whiter audience

[evollove]

Once, someone put on some old folk music from Ghana for me. It was the blues, more or less. No harmonic changes, but the scales were very bluesy.

The slaves then came over here. Some dude in the cotton field sang out, "Baby left this morning/Feeling so damn sad."

The others in the field repeated/responded, "Baby left this morning/Feeling so damn sad" while dude thought of a rhyme. "I tell's ya all/Best bitch I done had." This call-and-response format lasts to this day.

So, there's that.

But this was all very basic stuff, musically speaking.

In thinking about "European" music, it's easy to think of "classical" or "opera" or something, but there is a long and rich tradition of the popular song in Europe. The form was particularly popular in the eighteenth century, as reasonably-priced pianofortes came on the market and there was a demand for ditties. This tradition existed in America as well.

A lot of the songs used endless variations on I-IV-V changes, which we all know and love.

And then at some point, the black music and the white music slowly made love and had a baby.

Originally Posted by chocolate_ladyland

have you ever heard of Dolly Mixture? They're first album is really cool

No, but they seem really interesting.

Is Liz Phair eligible, by the way? Not a huge fan, but if RHOF brought up Green Day, Phair doesn't seem an outrageous suggestion.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to evollove again.

[Mortte Jousimo]

About this cultural rasicm...I been long time aware that in my record shelf most of the albums are made by white people. Jimi Hendrix & Fishbone have been long time one of my big favourites, but the rest of my big favourites are white. Even I have quite a long time loved Howlin Wolf & John Lee Hooker, I think highly them influenced Captain Beefheart, Tom Waits, Dr. John & Nick Cave are better. And I don´t feel any bad conscience about it, it´s just the way this world has been. The music people recommended me when I was young, the reviews I read etc. were mostly just from white people. So I have grown mostly round the music made by the white. If there never had been racism in the world, the sitution in my music taste probably would been different.

But anyway I think it´s quite the same who the music I like has made, the most important think is that I like it because it sounds me just absolutely great!

[evollove]

I get what yr saying Mortte. "If it's good, who cares who made it?"

But when one group dominates cultural production, other voices tend to get silenced, or at least muffled.

For example: it's all well and good for Robert Plant to implore, "Squeeze my lemon til the juice runs down my leg." But it might be interesting to know how the chick feels about squeezing lemons. Might end up with something like PJ Harvey's "I'll rub it til you bleed." Now that's interesting.

[Rob Instigator]

music may be blind but the business of selling music is definitely not.

[evollove]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

music may be blind but the business of selling music is definitely not.

So true.

I would LOVE to go back in time and sneak into the executive boardroom of a major label as soon as RUN-DMC had a hit with "Walk This Way."

Oh the confusion! "White people don't like rap. Black people don't like guitars. Why is this thing a hit? It makes no sense! What the hell are we supposed to do now?"

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by evollove

But when one group dominates cultural production, other voices tend to get silenced, or at least muffled.
.

I think the present time has been domination of the monoculture that has nothing do to any ethnic groups. All the music of major record companies sounds the same from black to white artists.

From the Elvis times it has been common, that big companies never have anything interesting. Elvis also started from small company and when he caught audience, big company chased him. Nowdays all interesting artists are in small labels or make everything themselves. Big companies seem not to be interested small companies artists even they might have commercial potential. Big companies just have formats where every artists just had to fit. I just don´t like this time where formats are everywhere, it has nothing to do with creativity.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

The business of marketing music is.as.affected.by the structural racism underlying society.. racism determines exposure not the sound itself.. further in the 50s and 60s there was in fact a systematic effort to market white artistswwhose music sounded similar to black artists or even worse, have white artist cover black artist's material.to deny the black artists the exposure.. further social racism has segregated our local music scenes which then inherently segregates how we.are.exposed to new musics.. its.not that elvis or mick jagger were necessarily racist themselves but rather how we.in the mainstream were exposed to their music.at the dirct expense of black artists because of a racist.industry

[Genteel Death]

 

[evollove]

Rock out with your cock out.

[Rob Instigator]

We should try to start a "fringe" rock hall of fame, including acts that we love but that are too weird or small for the Rolling Stone assholes to care about. Everyone list 5

I nominate

Sonic Youth
Misfits
Unsane
Fugazi
Dinosaur Jr

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

That is true, there is a proto-blues which predates elements of rag time music. I just used rag time because Eurocentric music buffs always try to say how rag time is some kind of synthesis of European and black American musics, ITS FUCKING NOT!

Rag time significantly predates Jazz in its origins in the 1880s.. Its the sheet music form of rag time that comes about in the early 20th century when it was more popularized into the mainstream by a whiter audience

Yeah, you're avsolutely right.

I think there's a relatively widespread misconception about what Ragtime actually was, in terms of sound and style. The truth is that when one digs into the history of jazz, it becomes evident that Ragtime had multiple incarnations... It was probably the first musical movement created by black artists to be co-opted and appropriated by whites. So people hear the word, and think of the classical European composers who were influenced by Scott Joplin's work, or the countless "revivals" that resulted from Hollywood "tributes" to Joplin.

Ragtime is wiki-fied as being March music + syncopation. But before jazz theory even existed, it was a significant part of black culture. But it was happy, and that meant it didn't make whitey feel guilty (not that Whitey was prone to such feelings at the time). But it was pretty legitimately stolen by cosmopolitan cultures, right out of the heart of New Orleans.

The nitty gritty elements of ragtime and its origins (which had more to do with black piano and guitar players of the early 1900's than with American March music) are pretty obviously snubbed by the music historians who are responsible for writing academic texts on jazz and folk music. The public legacy of the genre tends to treat it as a 3 parts white to 1 part black style of music. Which is bullshit of course.

I took some jazz theory classes in my day. Guess how many music majors, of the hundreds I encountered, knew the name Fats Waller? Anyone? Ok, I'll tell you my count: zero. And I'm referring to fucking seniors here, not the average liberal arts fool trying to pussyfoot his was through human diversity requirements. I mean, the kids who studies jazz specifically. And yes, I'm definitely generalizing here: my experience isn't necessarily everyone's experience, but damned if I wasn't the ony student who ever raised a hand when a teacher asked that question. One of the biggest pop stars of his time; really one of the first pop stars ever.

Ughz.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

We should try to start a "fringe" rock hall of fame, including acts that we love but that are too weird or small for the Rolling Stone assholes to care about. Everyone list 5

I nominate

Sonic Youth
Misfits
Unsane
Fugazi
Dinosaur Jr

Wait, is there a rule about the number of years since the artist's first record?
Like the R&RHoF uses the 20 year rule... ?

Because my answers would depend on that.

Assuming there is a 20 year rule:

Sonic Youth
Flaming Lips
Joy Division
Tom Waits
Spacemen 3 (or Spiritualized)

... Unless "non-rock" artists are eligible.
... Ahh! Lists need better parameters than this. Haven't any of you seen High Fidelity?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Severian

Yeah, you're avsolutely right.

I think there's a relatively widespread misconception about what Ragtime actually was, in terms of sound and style. The truth is that when one digs into the history of jazz, it becomes evident that Ragtime had multiple incarnations... It was probably the first musical movement created by black artists to be co-opted and appropriated by whites. So people hear the word, and think of the classical European composers who were influenced by Scott Joplin's work, or the countless "revivals" that resulted from Hollywood "tributes" to Joplin.

Ragtime is wiki-fied as being March music + syncopation. But before jazz theory even existed, it was a significant part of black culture. But it was happy, and that meant it didn't make whitey feel guilty (not that Whitey was prone to such feelings at the time). But it was pretty legitimately stolen by cosmopolitan cultures, right out of the heart of New Orleans.

The nitty gritty elements of ragtime and its origins (which had more to do with black piano and guitar players of the early 1900's than with American March music) are pretty obviously snubbed by the music historians who are responsible for writing academic texts on jazz and folk music. The public legacy of the genre tends to treat it as a 3 parts white to 1 part black style of music. Which is bullshit of course.

I took some jazz theory classes in my day. Guess how many music majors, of the hundreds I encountered, knew the name Fats Waller? Anyone? Ok, I'll tell you my count: zero. And I'm referring to fucking seniors here, not the average liberal arts fool trying to pussyfoot his was through human diversity requirements. I mean, the kids who studies jazz specifically. And yes, I'm definitely generalizing here: my experience isn't necessarily everyone's experience, but damned if I wasn't the ony student who ever raised a hand when a teacher asked that question. One of the biggest pop stars of his time; really one of the first pop stars ever.

Ughz.

This just may be your best post ever!

[evollove]

Originally Posted by Severian

co-opted and appropriated by whites.

stolen by cosmopolitan cultures,

I dunno. Is it so wrong to say whites simply enjoyed the music? Wanted to play and compose such music? Is this a bad thing? Isn't that actually kind of a beautiful thing, how music transcends race?

Originally Posted by Severian

Guess how many music majors, of the hundreds I encountered, knew the name Fats Waller? Anyone? Ok, I'll tell you my count: zero.

This sucks and happens in every artistic field, I've found. Crazy, but some artists don't care about their history.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Evol, not its.not wrong to say white fans of black music just liked.it. BUT we still have to.acknowledge that whether with rag time at end of 19th century, jazz and blues in early 20th century, or.rock and roll in the mid20th century that the music industry was.racist.with a.more nefarious agenda of exploitation and denigration

[Mortte Jousimo]

Originally Posted by Severian

Wait, is there a rule about the number of years since the artist's first record?
Like the R&RHoF uses the 20 year rule... ?

Because my answers would depend on that.

Assuming there is a 20 year rule:

Sonic Youth
Flaming Lips
Joy Division
Tom Waits
Spacemen 3 (or Spiritualized)

... Unless "non-rock" artists are eligible.
... Ahh! Lists need better parameters than this. Haven't any of you seen High Fidelity?

Waits is already in official R´N´R HOF (believe it or not).

My list:
Sonic Youth
Damned
the Birthday Party
Bad Brains
13th Floor Elevators

[foreverasskiss]

is the Cramps rok n rol? perfect for this carnival and circus season. enjoying some bob dylan too. stuck my fist in a goats pussy, got a hickey from the worlds ugliest tattooed lady/lovely lady and got major cotton candy mouth high behind the 'shoot a flaming mustache and get two mutton chops for free' stand.

it all smells good. fair nights and autumn apples deluxe peppermints. anybody ever had an elephants ear? funnel cake fun!!

[Mortte Jousimo]

Cramps is just great!!! Really don´t believe they will never be in Hall Of Fame (not even death of lux caused that).