[ploesj]

people are afraid of death because they don't know what happens next-or if anything happens at all. through history, there has been enough evidence to tate that people are afraid of the unknown. life after death; god, heaven.. is all a way to console ourselves and make us less afraid, in my opinion.

[truncated]

I'm not really debating the labels; I think they're relatively "accurate." One issue is the definition of evolution - does that mean improved human functionality in a certain environment, a more developed technical intelligence, a more perceptive consciousness? The possibilities are limitless, and therefore, so are the "methods" of achieving it. Is evolution the "advancement" of the mind beyond the need for physical form? If so, then the superego as it's defined would take precedence. But one could argue for a more discernable consciousness (I realize "consciousness" seems a contradictory term in the context of this sentence, shut up) of the primal, which would give it over to the id.

Too much to wade through and discuss before coming to any conclusions. And, I've gone off on a tangent again, apologies.

[!@#$%!]

here's my quickie:

fear of death is natural, and genetic; demanded by survival and ingrained by evolution. it's there.

some years ago i was in this strange situation of pulling a big bull with ropes suddenly everyone lets go and guess who the bull looks at? my adrenaline shot like a motherfucker & i FLEW away & over a tall fence that left the bull charging at some posts.

besides fear there is cowardice-- oy, the constant, fucking, annoying terror, and the worries, and the... !! that's a disease and i've had my share of it.

i can also speak towards the "unfulfilled life"-- once i was hurling towards this building at maybe 50 mph inside a car the vehicle skidding and having done anything possible to avoid the collission and then to minimize its impace i faced the inevitable and-- surprise!!-- what pops into my mind?-- is it "booohooohoo i am going to die"?? -- no!-- it's "But i haven't done what i wanted to do...". i came out of the thing w/ a busted eyebrow and some major ptsd, but the stress had more to do with the consequences of staying alive & facing, oh, a number of destroyed cars & the injuries of passengers. the busted eyebrow (i was wearing no seatbelt) was the result of a last-second reaction to cover my passenger w/ my arm, so that my face impacted the windshield.

so i can say, you're afraid of death when your job is to avoid it but once you're right there it seems that other instincts take precedence.

[truncated]

Originally Posted by ploesj

people are afraid of death because they don't know what happens next-or if anything happens at all. through history, there has been enough evidence to tate that people are afraid of the unknown. life after death; god, heaven.. is all a way to console ourselves and make us less afraid, in my opinion.

True, but I think that's only a tiny element of the overall human fear of death; however, I could be biased in saying that, as I have no religion. Theoretically, one can only truly fear what one has previously experienced, as (logical) fear is largely based upon the anticipation of unpleasant consequences; and we can only deem something unpleasant having encountered it before. We can conceptualize a fear of the unknown, but not actually 'possess' it.

I had a point there, but my phone rang, and I forgot it. It probably wouldn't have made sense anyhow.

 

There, that's better.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by truncated

Theoretically, one can only truly fear what one has previously experienced, as (logical) fear is largely based upon the anticipation of unpleasant consequences; and we can only deem something unpleasant having encountered it before. We can conceptualize a fear of the unknown, but not actually 'possess' it.

Surely the fear of death disproves this theory.

Unless you're calling fear of death irrational.

And as fear is an emotion, something internal and intangible, how can conceptualized and actual fear be differentiated?

[truncated]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

here's my quickie:

fear of death is natural, and genetic; demanded by survival and ingrained by evolution. it's there.

some years ago i was in this strange situation of pulling a big bull with ropes suddenly everyone lets go and guess who the bull looks at? my adrenaline shot like a motherfucker & i FLEW away & over a tall fence that left the bull charging at some posts.

besides fear there is cowardice-- oy, the constant, fucking, annoying terror, and the worries, and the... !! that's a disease and i've had my share of it.

i can also speak towards the "unfulfilled life"-- once i was hurling towards this building at maybe 50 mph inside a car the vehicle skidding and having done anything possible to avoid the collission and then to minimize its impace i faced the inevitable and-- surprise!!-- what pops into my mind?-- is it "booohooohoo i am going to die"?? -- no!-- it's "But i haven't done what i wanted to do...". i came out of the thing w/ a busted eyebrow and some major ptsd, but the stress had more to do with the consequences of staying alive & facing, oh, a number of destroyed cars & the injuries of passengers. the busted eyebrow (i was wearing no seatbelt) was the result of a last-second reaction to cover my passenger w/ my arm, so that my face impacted the windshield.

so i can say, you're afraid of death when your job is to avoid it but once you're right there it seems that other instincts take precedence.

Important distinction you made there between instinctual fear and cowardice.

[luxinterior]

Originally Posted by truncated

 

I haven't read any part of this thread yet, but I sure do like this picture.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by luxinterior

I haven't read any part of this thread yet, but I sure do like this picture.

I wouldn't bother, it's too depressing. Just stick with the picture.

[truncated]

Originally Posted by Pookie

Surely the fear of death disproves this theory.

Unless you're calling fear of death irrational.

And as fear is an emotion, something internal and intangible, how can conceptualized and actual fear be differentiated?

This is why I argue that the fear of death isn't for most rooted in the fear of the unknown, or anything spiritual in nature - I hold that it lies more in the ego, as atari correctly identified it. It's the lamentation of what one will fail to experience upon dying. But again, that's very presumptuous and biased of me - I can't really identify with those that have a concept of the afterlife, positive or negative, religious or not, so perhaps this is a more prevalent basis of the fear of death than I realize.

And I think any emotion can be differentiated that way - you can theorize the unexperienced and unknown, and therefore predict a relative emotional reaction; however, to me that differs from anticipating an emotional reaction to/consequence of a prior concrete experience, one whose mere occurrence has conditioned your mental response.

Ex. Fear of afterlife = fear of unknown = conceptualized
Fear of being stabbed = fear of physical pain = actual

However, whether those are respectively illogical and logical are even debatable.

[truncated]

I'm tellin' you, llamas are where it's at. Their mere existence negates the need for this entire discussion.

[to.w]

"Death is Death, la la lalala"

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by truncated

Important distinction you made there between instinctual fear and cowardice.

yeah, my instinctual fear is not even a fear of the "afterlife", whatever the hell that might be (a fiction, i suspect). it's the natural terror of being destroyed which... kicks the body into higher gear to save one's ass. rabid dog? run. cornered by rabid dog? kick his ass. i've ran away from the cops too...

i am very definitely afraid of death, so i try to drive at the speed limit these days. i think a healthy fear of death promotes good health & self-preservation.

however i do not live in cowardice of death, waking up in the morning and saying "oh no! what could it be today? flesh-eating bacteria? ossama? the increasing murder rate?? stray meteorites? mutant mexican zombies???". fuck that! that shit is for people who watch the tv news.

my point, i forgot what was my point... oh yeah, i don't want to die, so i need to eat, so i need to work, so i'd better quit posting here.

[atari 2600]

What separates the human animal from the other animals is the will and the potential ability to contemplate death consciously.

It naturally follows that this is our human responsibility.
Instead, what we find is primarily a world full of deluded "individuals" that wear masks as a bulwark against death and where elaborate anthropomorphic institutions of hero worship have been established to fend off death.
All of this is natural, however, but as humans evolve technology, they are steadily losing touch with meaning as the technology progresses too quickly, and thus, in general, a slow, gradual de-evolution trend (in modern nation-states mostly) is taking place whereby our minds are becoming mentally sick(er), and our bodies are becoming weak(er).

So, none of that is not to say that ritual does not have its place though.
What we find in some cultures, as opposed to say, the mass in Catholicism which has become sterile, is the virile ritual of say, the Spanish Bullfight, La Corrida, where man confronts his animal nature (the mastery of utilizing and controlling instinctual fear) and learns about his true human animal nature. Of course, the Spanish culture is well-steeped in meditation upon death. Just look to Lorca's writing or Picasso's painting.

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by truncated

And to floatingslowly, aren't all of our seemingly unrelated fears extensions of a fear of death, insofar as logical fear is born of the assumption of an undesired consequence (the most extreme and inevitable being death)?

Just askin' for discussion purposes. I'm undecided on that myself, as most common fears are illogically based.

I agree, but doesn't the adage "there is nothing to but fear itself" sort of apply here?

all fears are illogically based. do we need to post "MAURY!! MUSTARD RUINED MY LIFE!!" here? her terror over mustard goes far beyond most people's fear of dying! it's all relative. I'm afraid of stinging/flying insects because I was stung IN the ear when I was about 6. to this day I scream like a lil' girl when I see one. the wife hates spiders even worse so it evens out I guess.

do I want to die? hell no. living is kind of cool. [understated]

does it cause me any terror? absolutely not.

I'll go ahead and just geek out here so as to attempt to explain myself the best I can.

Decay and it's agent Death are but cyclical processes that all life goes through. it's beyond natural and beneficial, it's absolutely necessary.

the particles in our bodies that are elementally higher than hydrogen and helium were formed from the massive explosions of stars much more ancient than our brains can really grasp.

these particles were flung outward "randomly" from many points across the sky. through the miracle of gravity (praise Xenu!), these particles grouped together into something greater than themselves. life was born of decay, even in the beginning.

I'm thankful to whatever cosmic algorithm there is that allowed me my human form. I'm glad that I'm not a mayfly with only one day to eat, fuck and fly (you know that's one hell of a good day though).

about 6 billion years from now, our sun will have exhausted it's nuclear fuel and begin to turn into a red giant. all of the material on the surface of this planet will be blown out toward deep space (and who knows eventually what).

I FUCKING DIG THAT. why would I be afraid of dying when I know that??

and like I said, I died before and it didn't ruin my life.

I have a ten year old son, and I could unequivocally say YES, I am afraid of his death and of him dying (even if it's due to his age). but it's based only on "selfish" reason (ie: I want my son to live a long life).

sorry for the ZOMG(MEGA)BLOG, hopefully this proves everyone right.

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by truncated

I'm tellin' you, llamas are where it's at. Their mere existence negates the need for this entire discussion.

death rides a pale llama.

[truncated]

Originally Posted by floatingslowly

I agree, but doesn't the adage "there is nothing to but fear itself" sort of apply here?

all fears are illogically based. do we need to post "MAURY!! MUSTARD RUINED MY LIFE!!" here? her terror over mustard goes far beyond most people's fear of dying! it's all relative. I'm afraid of stinging/flying insects because I was stung IN the ear when I was about 6. to this day I scream like a lil' girl when I see one. the wife hates spiders even worse so it evens out I guess.

do I want to die? hell no. living is kind of cool. [understated]

does it cause me any terror? absolutely not.

I'll go ahead and just geek out here so as to attempt to explain myself the best I can.

Decay and it's agent Death are but cyclical processes that all life goes through. it's beyond natural and beneficial, it's absolutely necessary.

the particles in our bodies that are elementally higher than hydrogen and helium were formed from the massive explosions of stars much more ancient than our brains can really grasp.

these particles were flung outward "randomly" from many points across the sky. through the miracle of gravity (praise Xenu!), these particles grouped together into something greater than themselves. life was born of decay, even in the beginning.

I'm thankful to whatever cosmic algorithm there is that allowed me my human form. I'm glad that I'm not a mayfly with only one day to eat, fuck and fly (you know that's one hell of a good day though).

about 6 billion years from now, our sun will have exhausted it's nuclear fuel and begin to turn into a red giant. all of the material on the surface of this planet will be blown out toward deep space (and who knows eventually what).

I FUCKING DIG THAT. why would I be afraid of dying when I know that??

and like I said, I died before and it didn't ruin my life.

I have a ten year old son, and I could unequivocally say YES, I am afraid of his death and of him dying (even if it's due to his age). but it's based only on "selfish" reason (ie: I want my son to live a long life).

sorry for the ZOMG(MEGA)BLOG, hopefully this proves everyone right.

Your fear of stinging insects doesn't seem illogically based at all to me - it's based on a past negative experience.

And I'm not questioning whether you fear death. I believe it's possible not to fear death, but also not to want to die. Simple enough concept.

What was the point of this discussion again? Fucking sophists.

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by truncated

Fucking sophists.

yeah, I tend to avoid serious threads, but I had a 1/2 day at work.


again, you shame me.

[truncated]

Originally Posted by floatingslowly

yeah, I tend to avoid serious threads, but I had a 1/2 day at work.


again, you shame me.

If you mean I shame you with the sophist remark, it wasn't directed at you.

But if I shamed you in some other way, that's fabulous. I take immense pleasure in the suffering of those around me.

[Savage Clone]

Originally Posted by truncated

I take immense pleasure in the suffering of those around me.

This makes me wonder why you don't post here more often.

[truncated]

There is a line in the sand of participation on this forum, the crossing of which would turn me into a masochist. And that only applies in certain situations.