[Rob Instigator]

what does it matter where they played their gigs?

[Norma J]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

what does it matter where they played their gigs?

HAHA.

You're not getting this at all.

[Torn Curtain]

From what I read on the French entry of wikipedia on heavy metal, there's a distinction between hard rock and heavy metal, hard rock retaining palpable blues rock influences while heavy metal departs from them. In that sense AC/DC are hard rock more than heavy metal.

AC/DC are not Heavy Metal. Why? Because they are a rock band or, as someone already pointed out, a hard rock band. Since I despise the term hard rock I call them rock. If you don't believe me look at the artwork on their sleeves, DO listen to the records and then shut the fuck up.

[jetengine]

Originally Posted by Torn Curtain

From what I read on the French entry of wikipedia on heavy metal, there's a distinction between hard rock and heavy metal, hard rock retaining palpable blues rock influences while heavy metal departs from them. In that sense AC/DC are hard rock more than heavy metal.

Hmmm...That's interestingly contradictory, because all my growing up, I heard the difference explained in 180-degrees opposite fashion. According to all the magazine articles and books published in the '70s and early '80s, 'heavy metal' got started in the mid '60s with a souped-up, deafening approach to the blues by the likes of The Yardbirds, Cream, The Hendrix Experience, Blue Cheer, etc. The next wave of groups--early Jethro Tull, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple (Mark II), Uriah Heep, Budgie, etc.--traced their roots to these bands. 'Hard rock', on the other hand, had its roots in soul/R&B and rockabilly, and its 'founders' were groups like Mitch Ryder & The Detroit Wheels, The Who, MC5, etc. There was also the bizarre, can't-quite-be-defined category of 'heavy rock', which more or less died with the '60s. This category seems to have either existed as a gray area between the other two, or was a heavy metal approach to the styles of rock that inspired hard rock. (I'm confusing the hell out of you now, aren't I?!!) 'Heavy rock' was defined by groups like Vanilla Fudge, the less classical-inspired side of The Nice, Iron Butterfly, Deep Purple (Mark I), etc.

Anyway, I think when they diagnose heavy metal as being further separated from the blues than hard rock, they are thinking of post-1980 heavy metal, which is really a genre (as opposed to a sub-genre) in itself, just as influenced by punk, hardcore, noise, industrial, etc. as what it is the '70s heavy metal bands. In fact, if one is going to pick the original Metallica or Slayer as a prime example of heavy metal, then one must automatically conclude that all pre-1981 heavy metal isn't really heavy metal, and is just barely proto-heavy metal at best in the case of 4 or 5 groups (Sabbath, early Rainbow, Scorpions, Judas Priest, Motorhead). Like I said in a previous post on this thread, by the definition I grew up on, the last true heavy metal bands that considered themselves heavy metal were Anvil, Iron Maiden and Trouble, and there hasn't been a well-known new example of the sub-genre since 1984. I would argue that hardcore albums like Black Flag's Slip It In and grunge albums like Soundgarden's Badmotorfinger have vastly more in common with the original heavy metal music of the late '60s/early '70s than, say, Slayer's Hell Awaits or Anthrax's State of Euphoria. Ironic, isn't it?

[Norma J]

Must spread whatever it is you spread before givig it to Porkmarras again.

[thewall91]

not to get into the debate here, but ac/dc are more metal than van halen. surprised nobody mentioned them as being mistaken for metal. they certainly didn't make "pretty woman" sound heavy, ice cream man is seriously cute. hot for teacher rules, as does panama, but there is nothing metal about the keyboard sounds of jump. they have some metal tunes, but an equal amount of poppy songs.

[atari 2600]

other Van Halen tags
"california rock" "L.A. rock" "glam metal" "hard rock" "heavy rock" "'80s pop rock" "stadium rock" "arena rock" "big rock" "cock rock"

If one looks up a particular band in wiki, for instance, there often are several genres listed.

For Van Halen, wiki tags the music as:
Hard rock
Heavy Metal

For AC/DC:
Hard rock, heavy metal, blues-based rock, rock and roll

In each case, we find "hard rock" listed first, and (one would assume) primarily, and "heavy metal" appearing as a secondary description. Which is to say that both bands contain elements of "heavy metal," and so one is technically not entirely wrong in referring to them as "heavy metal," it just depends on the point of view. But what is also being implied by the online encyclopedia is that perhaps the most all-encompasing term that best describes the music of each band (Van Halen and AC/DC) is "hard rock."

[Norma J]

Sway, you didn't raise any valid points. You mentioned the brand of toothpaste and what fabric softner bands use to describe their music.

Anyway. It really doesn't matter.

Let's just leave it at: The ones who think AC/DC are metal are wrong and will one day see the light, and that those who understand they are a (heavy) Rock band are better off in some way or another because they know right from wrong.

Ok?

Good.

Done.

[atari 2600]

Well, swa(y), that's not only the basis of many blues songs, but also many songs in general. Another huge blues theme is revenge on the unfaithful lover and outrage at and/or revenge against the boss man. I'm not stereotyping blues music, there is also a lot of spiritual and soulful content too, of course.

Here's a good explantion on why Norma J is basically right, yet is also wrong when he insistently excludes other viewpoints:

Originally Posted by me (mere minutes ago)

In each case (in each wiki listing for Van Halen and AC/DC), we find "hard rock" listed first, and (one would assume) primarily, and "heavy metal" appearing as a secondary description. Which is to say that both bands contain elements of "heavy metal," and so one is technically not entirely wrong in referring to them as "heavy metal," it just depends on the point of view. But what is also being implied by the online encyclopedia is that perhaps the most all-encompasing term that best describes the music of each band (Van Halen and AC/DC) is "hard rock."

[atari 2600]

Well, of course those are the wiki genre classifications..which are correct in the larger sense of their proper usage in the cultural lexicon.

In the actual historical sense, jetengine expressed the "minority report" on the matter quite well (as usual).

[Norma J]

Originally Posted by swa(y)

and i agree with ya on everything....100%.

So now your saying you agree with my 'Blues' statement?

Make up your mind, woman!

[Norma J]

You're coming along, Sway. This is a new side to you.

[jetengine]

Footnote to my previous post re. the blues basis for heavy metal: In the 1995 10-part television mini-series Rock and Roll, heavy metal gets the treatment in the final minutes of the episode dedicated to blues-based rock. Black Sabbath and Deep Purple get a mention, Eric Burdon is quoted re. Jimi Hendrix (featured prominently in this episode), and Led Zeppelin are seen performing 'Stairway to Heaven' from The Song Remains the Same. The final quote from the narrator goes something like, "Led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven' seems at first listen to be as far-removed from the blues as [comparison I can't remember--this was 12 years ago, people!], but if you peel back the layers, you will find them there,..., etc...."

[Torn Curtain]

1. A Heavy Metal song that defines the genre: The number of the Beast / Hallowed be thy name by Iron Maiden, Breaking the law by Judas Priest
2. A Heavy Metal band that defines the genre: Iron Maiden / Judas Priest / Black Sabbath
3. One Heavy Metal album you would want on a desert island:The number of the beast maybe
4. One Heavy Metal song that makes you dance: I hate dancing
5. One Heavy Metal song that makes you drink: none
6. A band that should be thought of as Heavy Metal, but rarely are: no idea
7. A band that shouldn't be thought of as Heavy Metal, but regularly are: AC/DC / Scorpions / Led Zeppelin
8. British or American: British
9. Sonic Youth's most Heavy Metal song (no covers):Titanium expose

[Everyneurotic]

Originally Posted by thewall91

not to get into the debate here, but ac/dc are more metal than van halen. surprised nobody mentioned them as being mistaken for metal. they certainly didn't make "pretty woman" sound heavy, ice cream man is seriously cute. hot for teacher rules, as does panama, but there is nothing metal about the keyboard sounds of jump. they have some metal tunes, but an equal amount of poppy songs.

agreed. also with floozie mentioning aerosmith.

Originally Posted by swa(y)

...thus, prurient could be some form heavy metal to some folks(course, i dont feel that way, but i could see how someone else could)...

i'm sure dominik would be one those in favor of this theory, at least partially.

[Rob Instigator]

if it is heavy, scary, depends on riffs for the thrust of the song, and is a bit theatrical, one can call it metal!

[Everyneurotic]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

if it is heavy, scary, depends on riffs for the thrust of the song, and is a bit theatrical, one can call it metal!

not all metal is theatrical.

[Bicorn Halfelven]

Since metal is the majority of what i listen to, and for the most part, always has been, this thread has been the source of much mirth, bewilderment, and a couple bits that made me laugh out loud they were so rediculous.

ACDC is metal because of "devil" imagery? Robert Johnson was METAL AS FUCK.

Those who have heard Ash Pool might agree with the Prurient/metal connection. While Fernow's Prurient material shares the abraisiveness of grindcore or brutal death metal, it's got much more in common (i think) with power electronics and hear me out, hardcore. I don't think the power electronics description is going to ruffle any feathers, but anybody who's seen a hardcore show and seen Prurient do his thing can probably see the comparision. The viseral, furious performance (especially vocally), is mostly drawing upon hardcore influences, but i could be wrong.

[Bicorn Halfelven]

I guess i shouldn't say "mostly" hardcore influences, but i can definitely see them. Black metal plays no small part either.