[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

and theological concerns can very wel be "thrown out" if one does not believe ina soul or a creator. in this case theological arguments are purely MOOT!

That's terribly naive to say. God and the soul aren't the only matters of spirituality and spirituality isn't dependent on them.

[Rob Instigator]

jesus espoused a wholesale abandonment of organized religion.
he was killed for this.


The Bible (Biblia) means a "collection of books." This collection of books was put together as we now know it, around 1000 years after Jesus was said to have lived. There are over 80 MILLION American citizens who believe that their common english translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of old translations of Hebrew and Gnostic texts are an unimpeachable and incontrovertible word for word statement of FACT.

these people make me sick.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by pbradley

That's terribly naive to say. God and the soul aren't the only matters of spirituality and spirituality isn't dependent on them.

how?

how does spirituality exist without animus, or a soul or some sort of supernatural "state of existance?"

spirituality without belief in a soul or a god or gods is not spirituality. it is pure superstition, which is stupid as fuck too.

[the ikara cult]

you dont need to post pictures of Scientists to explain reasoning. Look at Pavlovs Dog. If you train a dog to expect food when a bell is rung it will salivate; this is basic reasoning. When you then ring a bell and present no food the dog will still salivate, expecting food, but only up to a point. Soon it learns again that the bell no longer precludes the food, and it treats the bell as just another sound.

This is what science is; you learn on the basis of how often something occurs. If one instance precludes another enough you will take that as a fact. It all depends where you set your own personal threshold. Religious people have learned to set their threshold extremely high. Unattainable even, because nothing is 100%. But science says that if 95 times out of 100 it happens then it is predictive. Religion just asks that you believe in the unnatainable, for its own reasons.

[Rob Instigator]

to give them MONEY

there is only one true god and that is Mammon.

they know this.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

Relativity is absolutely true; it accurately predicts the physical interactions of matter throughout the entire universe. It is no theory. In 2003, it was proven in an experiment partially conducted right here in Charlottesville that the speed of light and the speed of gravity are exactly the same.

That's a bit too confident for me. The marriage of Relavity and Quantum Theory is still out of grasp and until a unified theory comes along I wouldn't call any modern physics theory absolutely true.

I believe I remember this posting this research in the Science thread:
http://www.science-spirit.org/archiv...php?new_id=305

I'm not trying to undermine Relativity, it's the best thing we have going, but I wouldn't say it is beyond being doubtable.

[atari 2600]

Oh, this same old gobbledegook yet again.

The "marriage" you write of will never happen, pbradley. Subatomic particles are too small and move too quickly for us ever to be able to get a handle on them. So the problem isn't in Einstein, it is merely beyond human capability to prove relativity correct in high energy particle physics. I really cannot understand the abject ignorance on this matter.

We have seen a transformation in our modern world as a direct result of relativity. The best scientists have been trying to work out HEP since the forties, and have come up with little. There will never be a TOE (theory of Everything), there will never be a GUT (Grand Unification Theory). On a side note, humans will never be successfully cloned.

"It is the duty of humans to understand that there are some things we will never understand, and that this is not a concession, but a category, an expression of the ontological definition of the relationship between a cognitive spirit and eternal truth."
- Soren Kierkegaard

Quantum Electrodynamics is predictive becuase relativity doesn't break down in QED. Relativity is 100% predictive, and perfectly and elegantly correct.

Originally Posted by http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2639043.stm quoted for people who refuse to click links

To measure gravity's velocity, Kopeikin determined that it could be determined with the help of the planet Jupiter, if its mass and velocity were known.
The perfect opportunity arose in September 2002, when Jupiter passed in front of a quasar - a distant, very active galaxy - that emits radio waves.
Fomalont and Kopeikin combined observations from a series of radio telescopes to measure the apparent change in the quasar's position as the gravitational field of Jupiter bent the passing radio waves. From the observations the researchers determined that that gravity does indeed move at the same speed as light.

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by pbradley

That's a bit too confident for me. The marriage of Relavity and Quantum Theory is still out of grasp and until a unified theory comes along I wouldn't call any modern physics theory absolutely true.

I believe I remember this posting this research in the Science thread:
http://www.science-spirit.org/archiv...php?new_id=305

I'm not trying to undermine Relativity, it's the best thing we have going, but I wouldn't say it is beyond being doubtable.

I've said about as much before, but atari loves him some Einstein.

good luck and gawdspeed.

edit: told ya!

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

how?

how does spirituality exist without animus, or a soul or some sort of supernatural "state of existance?"

spirituality without belief in a soul or a god or gods is not spirituality. it is pure superstition, which is stupid as fuck too.

It appears that you have a confused notion of the body/mind relationship. The mind and soul in most philosophy are one in the same. In existentialism, there is a concept called "transcendence" (I would like to expand on an existential defense of spirituality, but that's too large for here).

You may not believe in the soul (I'm not convinced of it's existence either) but surely you believe that the mind exists. The mind desires spirituality. The mind not in body but of body requires spirituality, as well. Have you never gone to a requiem and not felt the weight?

[Rob Instigator]

any "weight" felt is symptomatic of the human brain, the single most complex thing on our planet. we feel things. we see things, we experience transcendence, IN OUR HEADS. I do not believe that the "mind" exists as a separate wholesale entity from the physical brain. people with brain lesions and brain trauma lose just as much of their "mind' as they do their "brain"

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

Oh, this same old gobbledegook yet again.

The "marraige" you write of will never happen, pbradley. Subatomic particles are too small and move too quickly for us ever to be able to get a handle on them. So the problem isn't in Einstein, it is merely beyond human capability to prove relativity correct in high energy particle physics.

We have seen a transformation in our modern world as a direct result of relativity. The best scientists have been trying to work out HEP since the forties, and have come up with little. There will never be a TOE, there will never be a GUT.

"It is the duty of humans to understand that there are some things we will never understand, and that this is not a concession, but a category, an expression of the ontological definition of the relationship between a cognitive spirit and eternal truth."
- Soren Kierkegaard

It's ironic to me that you appeal to the fact that man will not know all yet claim that we already know all that we are capable of knowing. I agree with the former, but I disagree with the later. I really don't see how this is suppose to back your position.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

any "weight" felt is symptomatic of the human brain, the single most complex thing on our planet. we feel things. we see things, we experience transcendence, IN OUR HEADS. I do not believe that the "mind" exists as a separate wholesale entity from the physical brain. people with brain lesions and brain trauma lose just as much of their "mind' as they do their "brain"

Modest, subjective spirituality is still spirituality. In fact I would claim all spirituality is subjective while religion is taken objectively. Spirituality and religion are not the same thing.

[atari 2600]

All Kierkegaard states is that it is our duty to understand that some things cannot and will never be proven. It isn't Kierkegaard's position that nothing can ever be proven...far from it.

To prove God with 100% certainty eliminates the meaning of existence itself. Einstein pretty much did prove God (and Pascal to an extent before him), but then there's this Quantum Mechanics thing.

Look at how the world has changed since relativity.

It can never happen, but just imagine what would occur if a Grand Unification Theory did come along that was 100% correct. I know what would occur: the rapid extinction of humans.

I mean, Jeez, we can't even handle the truth of relativity.

Please stop quoting me. I'm getting away from the computer for a bit.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

All Kierkegaard states is that it is our duty to understand that some things cannot and will never be proven. It isn't Kierkegaard's position that nothing can ever be proven...far from it.

You tote your reading comprehension skills but I wonder some times. I said "will not know all" in that "all" being a unified theory. If you can not prove some things, then you can't prove all things. I wasn't claiming that all things in total are unknowable. That's absurd.

Sorry, quoted before you edited your last post.

[atari 2600]

First of all, your unconscious/subconscious already does know everything.

But, just like the fact that there will never be a Theory of Everything, our conscious minds can never know this information. It is impossible. If it were, it would make life meaningless anyway. One communicates with God in dreams, and to an extent, in silent meditation. Dreams work out all the stimuli we are unable to process with our conscious minds. In dreams, our minds are repairing themselves.

We are beings living our lives in a dimension we call time. In eternity, there is no time. This is why one cannot ask the question "who created God?" and expect any answer. God is not of time, God is eternity. We are humans who live in time but who briefly glimpse eternity and the immeasurable knowledge of the unconscious when we dream or, to an extent, when we meditate silently.

The Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy elegantly states that matter cannot be created or destroyed, but merely changes from one form into another. That sums up eternity right there and also accounts for the changes we observe in the dimension we call time.

[pbradley]

I'm calling doubt to your claim that Relativity is undoubtable, nothing more. I'm not disagreeing with your claim that the conscious mind is limited and I don't know why you think I am. But I'm willing to rest this if you have something else you need to do.

[Rob Instigator]

what everyone who is out to prove or disprove a deity or a soul forgets is that the whole basis of all religions is that they are dependent upon BELIEF. this "belief" is the acceptance that something/someone exists without any proof whatsoever, and with no proof ever forthcoming.
that is FAITH/BELIEF
Due to this it is impossible to refute religion or spirituality. That makes it the most succesful con game ever pulled on humanity

humans as we know it are less than 200 thousand years old. That is not enough time to totally eradicate the purely animalistic aspects of our brains. religion and spirituality are a byproduct of our immensely capable and self-aware minds trying to grasp "feelings/emotions" that make us think there is something greater than ourselves. there is not. it is all just human words and concepts used to describe emotions and fears left over from our million years as savannah dwelling primates.

[the ikara cult]

again, Belief and Scientific fact are on the same continuum of information. It depends on how potent you need the information to be for you to call it true and believe it, and whether you believe the information to be cumulative OR to what extent that one piece of information (which is what religion depends on) overrides all other information

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

what everyone who is out to prove or disprove a deity or a soul forgets is that the whole basis of all religions is that they are dependent upon BELIEF. this "belief" is the acceptance that something/someone exists without any proof whatsoever, and with no proof ever forthcoming.
that is FAITH/BELIEF
Due to this it is impossible to refute religion or spirituality. That makes it the most succesful con game ever pulled on humanity

humans as we know it are less than 200 thousand years old. That is not enough time to totally eradicate the purely animalistic aspects of our brains. religion and spirituality are a byproduct of our immensely capable and self-aware minds trying to grasp "feelings/emotions" that make us think there is something greater than ourselves. there is not. it is all just human words and concepts used to describe emotions and fears left over from our million years as savannah dwelling primates.

Gee, Rob, I'm reading your posts, but it seems you insist on not considering mine. Any idiot can debate religion. I'm not an idiot, so I'm not wasting my time. As one can infer, my only concern is to attempt to have an intelligent discussion concerning the existence of God. And again, I'm getting up from the computer, so please stop quoting me.

Originally Posted by me

First of all, your unconscious/subconscious already does know everything.

But, just like the fact that there will never be a Theory of Everything, our conscious minds can never know this information. It is impossible. If it were, it would make life meaningless anyway. One communicates with God (hence with eternity) in dreams, and to an extent, in silent meditation. Dreams work out all the stimuli we are unable to process with our conscious minds. In dreams, our minds are repairing themselves.

We are beings living our lives in a dimension we call time. In eternity, there is no time. This is why one cannot ask the question "who created God?" and expect any answer. God is not of time, God is eternity. We are humans who live in time but who briefly glimpse eternity and the immeasurable knowledge of the unconscious when we dream or, to an extent, when we meditate silently.

The Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy elegantly states that matter cannot be created or destroyed, but merely changes from one form into another. That sums up eternity right there and also accounts for the changes we observe in the dimension we call time. (and the Big Bang does the same thing; whether there will ever be a Big Crunch is absolutely debatable. I happen to believe there will.)

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

what everyone who is out to prove or disprove a deity or a soul forgets is that the whole basis of all religions is that they are dependent upon BELIEF. this "belief" is the acceptance that something/someone exists without any proof whatsoever, and with no proof ever forthcoming.
that is FAITH/BELIEF
Due to this it is impossible to refute religion or spirituality. That makes it the most succesful con game ever pulled on humanity

humans as we know it are less than 200 thousand years old. That is not enough time to totally eradicate the purely animalistic aspects of our brains. religion and spirituality are a byproduct of our immensely capable and self-aware minds trying to grasp "feelings/emotions" that make us think there is something greater than ourselves. there is not. it is all just human words and concepts used to describe emotions and fears left over from our million years as savannah dwelling primates.

You really do think we're so far beyond them, don't you. I debate with atari about man's incapacity to have a full understanding of reality and yet you posit that we already do. Bizarre. I'm tired of non-sequitor pseudo-discussion for now.

Aw, now I see I've been the dummy in the crossfire.