[ni'k]

Originally Posted by knox

No. You'll go back in history and find the same abuse, barbaric behaviour and hierarchical systems in most matriarchal societies. Morals and values are not gender generated, for the most part. There are countless aspects of biology, history and culture that brought us to where we are today. I don't believe in any "revolution" that'd change everything for the better, there's a slow process of improvement here and there, and different cultures are living very different stages. Human history is mostly bloody and horrible, we're a little bit better off than ever in certain parts of the world at the moment.

If you think you have the answer, and your answer is right. If you think "why create women that have that biological system in the fist place", then you are thinking something fascist, no?

I'm not really into sci-fi.

i don't agree that its facist. i'm just asking the question - wouldn't the real facism be to refuse to ask that question and thus force people to keep reproducing in a particular way because you are afraid of technology disrupting the "natural" order.

i'm talking about when it will become a choice to keep creating people the way they are now instead of altering them somehow. i mean after all when you decide to have a baby with a particular partner aren't you making a choice about what that baby is going to be like and what genes its going to have? what about when you have a situation were the knowledge of your genome and your partners genome is there, and also the genome of the child you will have and so what characteristics that child will have over its life. surely then the facism is to say "i don't want to know about any of this, i want to keep things natural". if there is technology to avoid say certain diseases from appearing in a child, then it makes sense to stop certain genes from circulation. of course this opens up a whole new space of power dynamics. but to repeat myself, i think the real facism is refusing to allow people access to these potentialities, because by doing so you are condemning them to reproduce, behave and exist in a particular way.

and i take your point about matriarchies, but surely the barbarity and abuse aren't exactly the same as in patriarchy, i dont see how patriarchy is any better. couldn't we just change for variation at least! seriously tho, i don't know enough about this to argue sufficiently. the whole debate about our ancestral links to matriarchal bonobos and patriarchal chimpanzees is interesting tho.

[knox]

I didn't say refuse, I meant enforce.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

then you are thinking something fascist, no?

nik, exhibiting authoritarian tendencies? nooooooooooo!!!!! how can that be???

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Nick/?!@ - why do you not write public poems to each other? Go on.

i would write him poems in the style of the shining path's paeans to Presidente Gonzalo, but if he writes me back he could later claim i stole it & he'd actually get out of his room to come shoot me, and i fear bullets.

but since you ask:

Pensamiento Gonzalo, Garantía de Triunfo Hasta el Comunismo.
Por los 16 años de la Guerra Popular Victoriosa.

Te encerraron entre cuatro rejas
te aislaron del mundo entero
creen que con eso van a apagar
las llamas de la revolución
¡Pero tu pensamiento es luz poderosa!
que esta en la mente de tu pueblo
y los pueblos del mundo.
Aullan los lobos y chacales
desde el estiercol, ante su impotencia
de frenar la Guerra Popular
te atacan, te insultan
refunfuñan, maquinan negros
y siniestros planes
como que son bestias heridas de muerte
¡Pero jamás podrán mellar tu pensamiento!

Tiran barro al acero
tratan de quitarte tu pensamiento
quieren acallar tu voz
quieren asesinarte
¡Pero no podrán acallar la encendida espada de tu alma!

Podran desaparecerte
despedazarte en mil pedazos
romper tus huesos
hasta podran matarte
¡Pero jamás podrán quebrarte!
tu pensamiento está en cada obrero, en cada campesino,
esta en cada dirigente que forjaste.

Pensamiento Gonzalo
es la Guerra Popular hasta el comunismo
es la conquista del poder en todo el
país
es la Revolución Proletaria Mundial
no es paz, no es rendición
no es traición,
es la violencia revolucionaria encarnada.

Querido Jefe
buén tiempo no estás con nosotros
pero nos armaste
para afrontar cualquier dificultad
tu obra la proseguimos
la Guerra Popular no se ha detenido
y no se detendrá hasta el comunismo.
¡Mantendremos en alto la gran bandera
roja
es tu decisión, tu voluntad
inquebrantable
es poder para la clase y el pueblo!

¡SALVO EL PODER TODO ES ILUSIÓN!

Camaradas,
no dudeis de nuestro jefe
de su pensamiento, de su ideología si aplicamos los principios
justos y correctos
jamás nos van a derrotar
la Guerra Popular es invencible
gana la guerra quién tiene ideología
superior
y nosotros la tenemos.

La reacción nos quiere
despojar de nuestro Pensamiento Gonzalo
nos quiere quitar el alma
¡Eso jamás!
Todo podrán quitarnos
menos la ideología.

Venceremos
porque tenemos ideología que es arma
más poderosa, invencible sobre la tierra
el Marxismo-Leninismo-Maoismo,
Pensamiento Gonzalo
un partido comunista en armas
una Guerra Popular victoriosa.

Nuevo poder que se desarrolla
¡no nos van a derrotar!
¡Nada ni nadie puede detenernos!
¡El Pensamiento Gonzalo es garantía de
victoria hasta el comunismo!

El Pensamiento Gonzalo está con nosotros
en cada uno de nosotros se agita y
palpita
la Guerra Popular sigue en marcha
con el Pensamiento Gonzalo,
somos sus continuadores
no dejaremos las armas
hasta el comunismo.
Somos forja del Presidente Gonzalo
invicto comunista, ¡acero puro!

Camaradas,
la palabra rendición
no existe para nosotros
nos hemos levantado en armas
para conquistar el poder en todo el país
hasta el comunismo con Guerra Popular
y no nos detendremos ante nadie
mientras quede un comunista
todo se volverá a levantar
es nuestra convicción inquebrantable
estamos plenamente convencidos
de que algún día ¡Las banderas rojas
del comunismo flameara en todo el país y en el mundo!

¡Viva el Presidente Gonzalo y su Poderoso Pensamiento!
¡Viva la Guerra Popular Victoriosa!

------

replace "gonzalo" with "ni'k", and it's a readymade

[knox]

what is huesos

[ni'k]

Originally Posted by knox

I didn't say refuse, I meant enforce.

ok, i'm not talking about some forced eugenics programme, hatched by a despotic techno facist regime, altho it would be fun to fake official looking documents relating to one and send them anonymously to infowars.com. my point is just that if you don't explore these technologies or block access to them you are forcing people to live by a certain set of conditions, which is also a form of facism.

[knox]

Right. It's like what they are doing now with the smokes. They don't want me to smoke because it can cost them money and it costs them money while I'm working and take breaks and I might get sick and need time off work before I'm too old. So they'll go around saying that I shouldn't smoke and then slowly creating laws that treat me like a criminal. Of course, that's a shit example.

But if such technologies become available at some point, don't you think most goverment would try to enforce them in some way? Healthy workers, less medical bills, we'll watch you reproduction even closer than WE ALREADY DO TODAY.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

what is huesos

bones

the 1st poem is actually a thinly veiled and poor plagiarism of a really good poem called "canto coral a tupac amaru"

[knox]

I thought it had something to do with huevos. But now it makes sense.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

I thought it had something to do with huevos. But now it makes sense.

those tend to get tortured a lot too. do a search on "picana". owwww!

[knox]

 

i see no huevos.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by knox

 

i see no huevos.

that's a woman, there in the picture. those bastards have no qualms whatsoever.

well, you could argue there are huevos inside her ovaries. i wonder if they are being fried. horrible.

[ni'k]

Originally Posted by knox

Right. It's like what they are doing now with the smokes. They don't want me to smoke because it can cost them money and it costs them money while I'm working and take breaks and I might get sick and need time off work before I'm too old. So they'll go around saying that I shouldn't smoke and then slowly creating laws that treat me like a criminal. Of course, that's a shit example.

But if such technologies become available at some point, don't you think most goverment would try to enforce them in some way? Healthy workers, less medical bills, we'll watch you reproduction even closer than WE ALREADY DO TODAY.

to think about all that as emanating from some "them" that acts in unison is the mistake. some people make money off your brains addiction to nicotine and your bodies drive to swap them coins for the product which delivers it. some of them make money being hired to promote campaigns to get you to smoke less so you are a more healthy/productive worker and save money for others.

i think what we are seeing there, and also with junk food and dieting, is capitalism trying to make us both binge and purge constantly, so that it can make more money of us.

i can see how a goverment would (will) try to harness these technologies for its own ends. but at the same time only under a totalitarian system could it hope to enforce its rules on everyone, and even then they would only be able to make it difficult for people, not impossible - like in china now with its policy of 1 child per family.

and also, aren't we effectively already genetically engineering ourselves already, considering the fact that our allocation and witholding of resources among particular people creates situations were particular people breed in particular scenarios and in a particular numbers. for example, it can be argued that due to say, all the adults in germany's refusal to stop breeding en mass and allocate all their resources to a particular african village, they are directly determining factors in the reproduction in that village. during the irish famine, a particular english minister refused to send a massive surplus of food to ireland. that decision affected the lives and reproduction of a massive amount of people. look at the catholic church and its views on abortion, women and birth control, didn't it effectively function as a system of reproducitive regulation? so doesn't our current ignorance of the scientific knowledge to harness our reproduction and genetic code to the full exist only as a temporary obstacle?

i don't think it will be a case of governments monitoring and controlling reproduction even more than they do already, it will be instead a collective expansion of the knowledge of how our actions already dictate how, when and were we reproduce and what exactly it is we are reproducing. there may indeed be abuse of this technology, in fact its almost garaunteed, but isn't it just ludditte to ignore it?

it will be a matter of the knowledge we have of the things we do now that effect our reproduction in ways we cannot yet see, and with that the ability to alter our behaviours and how they effect our reproduction.

the revolution will be in the changing conception of agency we attach to ourselves. right now we have a long overdue for a overthrow system of "democratic" politicians and governments standing in for god. right now, we leave a lot of these areas up in the air because we haven't had to ability to concioussly do much about them so far. its our democratic conception of self and how that relates to our expectations of what a government is and what its capable or entitled to do that is the only thing we can say with certainty won't last. if the system we have in the future is anything like the one we have now i'm sure it will have its regulations and conflicts. but who is to say what government will have control over it?

i dont see it as being about if these particular technologies become available, but more a matter of when the obstacles in their way evaporate, be they lack of innovation, research or just time.

back in the stone ages, people bred in a particular way, they had no choice for it to happen any other way. we are the same now, and we will be the same even in the future when we have all these now hypothetical technologies. just look at it the other way round, it was the material conditions of the stone age that produced a particular set of humans, the material conditions of this century that produced us, and the conditions of the future that produced those humans. there's nothing facist about this, the only facism is insisiting on clinging to an antiquated idea of what is natural and normal, or organo-facism as i've seen it called.

[knox]

Nobody knows what is natural and/or normal.