[touch me i'm sick]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

Being satisfied with being in error is what's "silly."

Silly
as in folly
as in you are willfully ignorant
as in you are evil by choice
as in it is people like you that make the world so intolerable & fucked-up for everyone.

oh

[atari 2600]

^
(along with the vast majority of people
(both religious & non-religious alike)
you're not alone there, that's for sure)

Originally Posted by lunberg

you aren't explaning at all why God existence should be all the more true : the complexity of the String theory itself isn't an argument in favor of the existence of God. You're using a classic but invalid argument according to which a complew universe cannot be the doing of chance. Invalid because it's a postulate ( is that the english word ?), not an undisputable fact.
The predicament in apprehending God existence is real : modern logic theories cannot be conceived with the absence of Postulate. Proving the existence of God must mean that you are always "presupposing something" (damn my englissh gets so bad on these subjects...). And the fact that, that 'something' is an arbitrary assumption (since it's a postulate) shows us that you cannot really prove the existence of God.

Let's go back to this whole label of "God," because as you shall see, I presuppose nothing. By naming God as a separate entity, we also do a disservice to the Truth. The earliest philosphers knew this to be the case & thus prohibited the naming of God. Language usually serves to only perpetuate the virus of confusion further when it comes to these matters & that, in a nutshell, is why Wittgenstein is the last important philosopher.

In our corporeal state, the dimension of time is absolutely & certainly a reality. But in Relativity, Time is just another dimension that is relative & is not absolute at all. What are the constants? There are none. The speed of light comes closest to being a true constant; it's absolutely constant in a vacuum of space. So what does this mean, then? It means that all matter in the universe is in constant flux & transformation, but in essence, everything always perfectly zeroes itself out no matter what. This defines our universe a continuum. Time & Eternity have a strange (seemingly paradoxical) relationship to each other. We can observe that the really large things in the universe are a bit more stabilized than everything else & follow precisely predictably ellipictal orbits & lifespans. On the other hand, we can attempt to observe the smallest of things & what we discover is beyond our wildest ideas of ever understanding because of the amount of kinesis & the overwhelming amounts of nuclear energy involved.
To see a world in a grain of sand And a Heaven in a wild flower, Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour. - Blake
Ponder that nearly all atoms of matter that everything is composed of is made up of overwhelmingly empty space. The closest we can (& probably will) ever get to being able to predict anything about these infinitesimally small particles (& subatomic particles & so on) of matter is through what we already have, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which allows us to guess intelligently by using the shadows.
& Here we are...in Platos' cave again.

With our conscious waking minds, we perceive separations that aren't ultimately there. All matter is composed of slightly varying forms of the same field of energy. God is not "the Other". There is no such thing as "the Other" except in one's own mind. Your unconscious already knows All a priori if you can key that information into conscious activity through calming your restless fears & anxieties. From all this it should naturally be apparent that our incessantly clinged-to notion of a "Knower" & "the Known" is yet another false boundary that is reinforced through the conditioning of our seemingly ever-pervasive creaturely existence.

As Socrates remarked, "who's to say that death is not the best thing?"

[Lipslikewindows]

I'm not saying this to anyone on the board (because I have no fucking clue if this applies to you), just some obseravations. I think these are three, of probably a lot, of common reasons people don't believe in God:

Fear of offending people who don't believe what you do. This applies especially to theists who believe in a specific God.
Fear of being confronted by God, because, down deep, we know that this would probably demand something severe from us.
Being angry at God for how fucked up the world is.

I think being polite is incredibly overrated in situations like these. A small example would be a song like "Shaking Hell" which probably offends the hell out of 99% of the population. A larger example would be that the parents of white children in the Deep South in the 1950s were offended by the idea that their children should have to go to school with black kids. But they needed to be offended. An even better example would be that I have no problem offending Pat Robertson or Osama bin Ladin by telling them that their god is false, that I know for certain, that God does not hate gays or Americans (though he might hate capitalism).

I can understand being afraid of being confronted by God though. When I was 18 I was stricken with scrupulosity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity). I couldn't stop thinking about how if God were truly good, he must hate so much of what I do. It was a fear of being confronted that, due to my brain chemistry, got way out of hand. I got on meds, wrote and prayed and read and listened to music like crazy, and was finally in a place where, though still afraid, I could say, "here ya go, God, do with it what you will"...and found out that God is love. and I don't mean God is loving. I mean God is love. He authored it. He is it. I realized how much comfort there was in being flawed and loved. This is why I say it would break my heart with joy if I saw Hitler in heaven. He, more than most people, probably would have issues with being able to accept he was forgiven.

Being angry with God about the world being fucked up only bothers me sometimes, when I forget that free will essentially dictates that the world will have problems, unless people were perfect, which they choose not to be (ha!).

I don't know if this makes any sense or even has to do with anything. Just thought I'd say it. I don't think these things would immediately occur to the atheist or agnostic as being the reason for their belief/lack of belief. I think it would be deeply buried probably. And I also think there are people who plum don't believe (and I think they will someday, whether when they die or before they die. And I think God's love will be such that it will be irresistible).

[acousticrock87]

Okay so there has been 2 whole pages added since I last checked here, and I ain't reading it all.

But in response to Lipslikewindows,

I think the reasons you said are very common, but maybe more so among people that were Christians at one point. Like you said, people who were raised atheist may just not be interested. But among truely interested people, there are those who have looked into certain areas of religion and found evidence against Christianity and may have a perfectly logical reason for disbelieving it. I have found very convincing evidence against Christianity. Stuff that would, at first glance, make it look ridiculous. But looking further into it (and by this I don't mean deluding myself into seeing something that isn't there) I personally found that Christianity does make a whole lot of sense in just about every way. It depends how willing you are to delve into it. If you stop a quarter of the way in, you'll find a very different answer than if you keep going. I think that's another major reason that people don't believe in God. And I'm not saying that the point I've reached is further than anyone else, but simply that as far as I can tell Christianity makes the most sense.

[atari 2600]

I'm not a memeber of any cogregationaly, porganized religion.

just for Diesel^

Diesel, I'm not a member of any organized religion.
atari 2600 is not a member of any public groups.
what does this mean? haha

I certainly don't discount Religion. I don't discount Love, Art, Music, Philosophy, Physics or Science either.

If I had to classify myself I would say that (& I have written this here before as well) that I am a Christian Existentialist with additional special emphasis on Lao-Tzu & Socrates. The Pretention Pipe is Brimmin', baby! Over-fuckin'-flowin'-with-the-knowin', oh darlin' honey pie.

A sheep can be cloned, a human cannot.

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

Okay so there has been 2 whole pages added since I last checked here, and I ain't reading it all.

I love haha how very boastfully he starts off like that...your loss.

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

I think the reasons you said are very common, but maybe more so among people that were Christians at one point. Like you said, people who were raised atheist may just not be interested.

Hey, here's a thought: What about Christians that are raised Christian*? How can they ever believe? I mean, REALLY.
Philosophy begins with doubt. All science begins with doubt as well. If one is conditioned to be a Christian then one can never truly believe, that is, unless they are Jesus or somethin' hehe.

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

But among truely interested people, there are those who have looked into certain areas of religion and found evidence against Christianity and may have a perfectly logical reason for disbelieving it. I have found very convincing evidence against Christianity. Stuff that would, at first glance, make it look ridiculous.

The Old Testament is a history of the Hebrews. It is not pretty. They were a fledgeling civilization in the ancient world & constantly being persecuted.

The tome is bloody.

Animals (almost Issac) was/were sacrificed for God's Love & Mercy. It is filled with epic tales.

The New Testament is about a revolution in consciousness that still has never taken place. Instead, the "faithful" like to incant "In the name of Jesus" at the drop of a hat whilst cooking up ways to lie & judge all the live long day and behave as the antithesis of Jesus. & it's probably all because the were raised Christian*, pretend to be Christian, & actually believe in nothing but themselves; besides, they got a great cover story to abuse.

Jesus spoke in parables & it's His blood that we remember.

The Bible is a Book of Wisdom...the world's greatest. It is not however, meant to be taken entirely literally. Such is the excuse given for the origin of much of the world's strife...the real reason is money though (but of course) which is the false god, but that leads us to politics...

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

But looking further into it (and by this I don't mean deluding myself into seeing something that isn't there) I personally found that Christianity does make a whole lot of sense in just about every way. It depends how willing you are to delve into it. If you stop a quarter of the way in, you'll find a very different answer than if you keep going. I think that's another major reason that people don't believe in God. And I'm not saying that the point I've reached is further than anyone else, but simply that as far as I can tell Christianity makes the most sense.

As I wrote before, I belong to no congregation or affiliation, but I feel good that you have made religion a foundation of your personality & I think it can only help you as long as you truly open yourself up to Love & reject Fear.

[Lipslikewindows]

I would generally agree with everything Acoustic and Atari said in their respective last posts.

Acoustic: I agree, I came to the conclusion that while there might not be absolute proof of Christianity being true, it seems to me to be illogical NOT to believe it.

[atari 2600]

Pericles built the Parthenon (for inspiration) before he ever commissioned the Agora (for practicality).

Imagination is more important than Knowledge. - Einstein

& it was later within the Agora at the Council of 500 (the foundation for all civilized legal systems forthwith), after Pericles, after the Spartan sieges & a plague that claimed a quarter of Athens,
& opportunist career politicians had assumed the mantle of a privileged class, &
the people had grown all fat & spoiled & lazy-minded happily subjugated to the gentry in their sufficient diversions --
that a once great democracy succumbed to the lowest common denominator of thought & mob rule ruled all --
and Socrates was condemned to death.

[acousticrock87]

Originally Posted by atari 2600

I love how very boastfully he starts off like that...your loss.

It is my loss, I agree, but I talk to people of all kinds of religions about religion quite a bit (though not nearly as much now as I used to, sadly.) Hah, not boastful - just admittedly lazy right now. And most of the time...

Originally Posted by atari 2600

Hey, here's a thought: What about Christians that are raised Christian? How can they ever believe? I mean, REALLY.
Philosophy begins with doubt. All science begins with doubt as well. If one is conditioned to be a Christian then one can never truly believe, that is, unless they are Jesus or somethin' hehe.

One who is raised as a Christian is certainly able to doubt. I know people who have fully turned their back on it after being raised Christian. It's quite common. Realizing that you do not have to stick to what you are raised to believe opens you up to the possibility of actually believing it. However, I'm not sure if you were saying that or the opposite. I may have misunderstood.

Originally Posted by atari 2600

The Old Testament is a history of the Hebrews. It is not pretty. They were a fledgeling civilization in the ancient world & constantly being persecuted.

The tome is bloody.

Animals (almost Issac) was/were sacrificed for God's Love & Mercy. It is filled with epic tales.

The New Testament is about a revolution in consciousness that still has never taken place. Instead, the "faithful" like to incant "In the name of Jesus" at the drop of a hat whilst cooking up ways to lie & judge all the live long day and behave as the antithesis of Jesus. & it's probably all because the were raised Christian*, pretend to be Christian, & actually believe in nothing but themselves; besides, they got a great cover story to abuse.

Jesus spoke in parables & it's His blood that we remember.

The Bible is a Book of Wisdom...the world's greatest. It is not however, meant to be taken entirely literally. Such is the excuse given for the origin of much of the world's strife...the real reason is money though (but of course) which is the false god, but that leads us to politics...

I do believe the Bible to be literal, but not all of it. There are parts (such as the parables) which are very obviously philosophical or symbolic. However, for the most part I think that it is more of a case of misinterpretation. Especially verses taken completely out of context and quoted "in Jesus name," as you said. Verses such as "no one comes to the Father but through me" is a good example of a difficult verse to interpret. I honestly am not sure what to make of that. Each passage must be looked at in the context of the entire book. I've come to the conclusion that things like that are not in my hands, and it is best to trust that God knows what He's doing there. But I am not going to tell someone "Jesus says you're going to hell" just because one verse could imply that if taken a certain way. That's not my place.

Originally Posted by atari 2600

As I wrote before, I belong to no congregation or affiliation, but I feel good that you have made religion a foundation of your personality & I think it can only help you as long as you truly open yourself up to Love & reject Fear.

I actually don't consider Christianity to be an organization. It is "follower of Christ." One who follows and believes His teachings. And I do. I don't follow Christians, I am one.

[kingcoffee]

Originally Posted by Lipslikewindows

King -

You just exposed the biggest misunderstanding you have with what I'm saying:

"He doesn't deserve to go to heaven. Ever." Of course not! That's not what Heaven, in Christianity , is! It's not something anyone deserves, or ever could deserve! It would warm my heart to know that Hitler finally laid down his guns and let himself be forgiven, let himself be healed of whatever fucked up tumor he had in his soul (which I believe we all have to varyingly-obvious degrees), let love win him over. In the end I don't think Heaven would be very meaningful if it weren't available to everyone, including Hitler. They would just have to choose it.

And yes, Hell is a place for people who don't want to "hang out" with God, in Christianity. It's a place for people who did not let him in. It has nothing to do with having violated the laws, because according to Christ, ahem, the founder of the religion, everyone's violated the law a zillion times over.

Also, religion is not a matter of faith necessarily. My religious beliefs are not really beliefs at all. I know God exists. I don't worry about it at all. It's not a matter of faith, it's a matter of knowledge. It would be an act of intellectual suicide for me to not believe in God. The faith (this is a common misconception) is put into the PERSON of God. You've seen their character, now you trust them, etc. Like you trust that your best friend isn't the kind of person to leave you high and dry. That's faith.

You just said exactly what I have been talking about. You say you "know" that God exists. But you only think you know. There is absolutely NO WAY you could possibly really know the existance of God. I know that you thinnk you know and that is good enough for you and that is perfectly fine. But the arguement is that no one no matter how convinced they are, can ever know the excistance of God in this lifetime. It just isnt possible. And everyone has different viewpoints on heaven and hell. Mine are just as invlaid or valid as the next persons. I don't know the real truth behind it all. I'm simply trying to put my perspective on the whole shebang.

[acousticrock87]

You can't know but you can have a good idea. There are more valid opinions but not valid ones, in a sense. My opinion that there is not a midget under my bed is more valid than someone else's opinion that there is one. But I'm not looking, so I don't know. You're right, but I think one opinion can be more likely than another.

[atari 2600]

boastful = puffed-up

I was just hinking of editing that.

[k-krack]

Originally Posted by Diesel

^^i like what you said i just think i'm bigger than any "sheep" religion. some jehovas (deja vu) knockod on my door and gave me a booklet, i read their booklet which basically wanted me to be a "sheep"(?!?!) and follow.

you know what, fuck all religion, kingdom of heaven my ass i'm here and now i will make this time count saaaa al al alah

word up.

[kingcoffee]

There are a lot of people ho have taught some very amazing truths which humans can live by. I think Jesus was one of these such people. He said some absolutely thruthful things. Whether Jesus was the Son of God or not, he was a great philosopher. And that is what I believe in. I beleive in his philosophy, not his divinity.

The problem with religion is that it is interpreted too literally by mindless, android-like people. Their religion is enslaving their minds by hindering the human experience. They are so secluded in their beleifs that they cannot possibly see that some other, contradicting belief may be possible or true. Thisnsi my problem with religion. People start wars over religion. People use religiona s a source for power rather than a source for salvation and inner peace. People hate other people because they don't beleive in their religion or their version of that religion. It's all too powerfula dn is too touchy a subject for all people to discuss it amicably and not be offended.

Look at the Middle East. A lot of the fighting over there is about religion. Some of it is about economic situations, land distribution and border disputes, but it all keeps coming back to religious differences.

Look at here in America: Some whacko's are protesting at U.S. soldiers funerals with signs that read "God hates Fags" and other such nonsense. You know where they learned that shit? The Bible. It's in there. The Bible says early on that God looks unfavorably on homosexual acts. It does not say that God HATES homosexuals, but it isn't His bag. This to me seems like archaic beleifs in a biological function that was not understood at the time it was written. Homosexuality, for whatever evolutionary reason, is a natural function of mammals.

[kingcoffee]

Originally Posted by acousticrock87

You can't know but you can have a good idea. There are more valid opinions but not valid ones, in a sense. My opinion that there is not a midget under my bed is more valid than someone else's opinion that there is one. But I'm not looking, so I don't know. You're right, but I think one opinion can be more likely than another.

One opinion can be more plausible than another, IF there is evidence. But since there is no evidence that any kind of God exists in any form, then we can only assume that everyone is fucking crazy and is imagining it all. I'm sick of philosiphying with everyone on this board cuz it isn't getting us anywhere.

[kingcoffee]

Originally Posted by Diesel

fuck em

evryone believes something, whether it be christianity, catholic, beer, drugs, muslim, you keep arguing what is right and wrong you will be dead before you get an answer so why not just do what makes you happy and stop telling everyone what the fuck yo want from life. do what you want and you jehovas stop knocking on my door and selling your fake god 4 fucks sake piss off

This is the first time I have EVER agreed with Deisel on anything. He makes a good point. Someone will always beleive something that someone else will not. It is alrgley pointless to keep debating it and saying that som eone is wrong (without sufficient evidence). We all need to find ways to get along and just live our lives before our differences ruin them.

[acousticrock87]

Well, you can say that this guy nailed every prophecy on the head with his theories, or you can say that there is something supernatural about the 50+ prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. Like you said, whatever is cool for you. But I'm not stupid. I don't believe in God without reason. Among other things, prophecies are evidence. You can call them weak or false evidence and find 50 reasons to discount them, like Till, but I think that a supernatural explanation is far more plausible than coming up with a formula of vague and hypothetical excuses. You're assuming everyone is fucking crazy because you just assume no one has a reason. You're perfectly free to disagree. I don't know that I'm right. I realize that. But I do have reasons.

No one has said "you're wrong" here as far as I've seen. If they have, you're obviously aware that they don't have a right. This is a discussion about our different beliefs. Not a ring of judgement. It's all cool. Or at least it should be.

[kingcoffee]

Everyone has reasons to believe in God. I didn't mean to say that people who believe in God are crazy. It's the things they do in the name of God that gets crazy. All this anti-homosexuality hate speach and trying to teach creationism as an alternative to fact-based scientific stuuf along with all the bullshit going on in the Middle East with terrorist organizations targetting people just for being Jewish or Muslim or Hindu or Christian. This is all sickening. I hate that crap and it kills a little bit of my soul every time I hear about it on tv.

[acousticrock87]

Well I'll agree with you there.

[the burninator]

I Worship Where The Fuck Is Waldo