[jon boy]

life is not always pretty.[/quote]

no shit.

[Cantankerous]

actually, i do.

you know who we should start testing?

[wax]

there have been some good reasons for animal testing in this thread.
and all you people who are so sure that animals should never be tested on, wait till half your family have died from cancer or some other disease that will one day have a cure because of animal testing and then come back and give your answer.
im not saying that i never feel bad about it, but adding things up, it is worth it. it is worth animals suffering so that people dont.
animals are animals, we have power thru knowledge, tigers have power thru strength. if a man walks around in the jungle and gets killed ny a tiger, we say he is an idiot because he walked round the jungle. its nature. survival of the fittest. if we are to survive then we are to use other species to do so. animals would kill humans from instinct. why is testing on animals not instinct? its our instinct to help our own species that makes us do such things.
nobody answered my hypothetical question.
hip priest quoted me, but never actualy answered. it was a simple hypothetical question but he took it as if it was not hypothetical.
its simple.
ill put it another way. in a HYPOTHETICAL way:
would you rather you banned all animal testing worldwide one year ago, or have not have banned it and have a cure that has been found in the last year that means a member of your family can live?
i dont think it is a trick question or an unfair one. its simply asking if you would end testing on animals or save the life of someone dear to you, which, if the "no" people had their way, would mean all your dear ones who could have been saved from animal testing would die.

please everybody, tell me the other great ways of testing except for on animals.
humans?
prisoners?
what?

it does help.

[Toilet & Bowels]

it's not like innocent animals are being kidnapped and tortured by evil scientists (although having said that, i bet that it happens) lab rats and the like are bred specificly for the purpose and wouldn't exist at all if it weren't the scientists need to test potentially dangerous chemicals before they try them out on humans

[Cantankerous]

not to mention that they're fucking rats. who cares?

for pregnancy tests at the doctors office in like the 60s, they took a pee sample and injected it into a rabbit and if the rabbit died in a couple days it meant you were pregnant.

[nature scene]

Another case of the haves wanting something that made their lives (in medical terms) better and healthier to be denied to the have nots?

[khchris(original)]

Originally Posted by Norma J

And people are looking at it like it's either animal testing or no testing at all, therefore no cure for disease etc. That's a totally 1D view of the subject.

Well done Hip Priest.

Wrong. Nobody is looking at it that way. The question was simple: do you agree with it or not. The question is based on what is conclusive up to this point.

And up to this point, animal testing has done some good, as horrible as it may seem to all of us.

Try not to forget that nobody here is 100% for it. All of us atleast have doubts about the nature of it.

But i do agree with the person who said that those who are 100% against it are a tiny bit naive, not completely naive, but a tiny bit to the extent that those people may be slightly narrow-minded in thinking that it has absolutely no place in this world.

[khchris(original)]

i don't know much about animal research, so i decided to find out a little for myself:

Armadillo
Researchers have found that the core body temperature of the armadillo is low enough to favour the growth of the leprosy-causing bacterium Mycobacterium leprae. Using the armadillo, scientists have been able to develop a vaccine against leprosy, and one day these unusual South American mammals could help to provide a cure for the disease.

Bee
The natural products of bees, such as royal jelly, honey and even their venom, have been found to have significant effects in cancer treatment and prevention. The application of these products inhibited tumour growth and increased survival of the animals they were tested on. These results may lead to human clinical trials using royal jelly or honey, combined with chemotherapeutic agents.

Cat
Studies on cats have given researchers better understanding of eye disorders like amblyopia (lazy eye) and strabismus (cross-eye). Cats have also contributed to research on glaucoma and cataract surgery. Because of similarities between the neurological system of the cat and that of humans, cats make excellent models for studying the spinal cord and vision and for other types of research involving the nervous system. [500]

Dog
It was first discovered that diabetics lacked the hormone insulin through studies in dogs – the results of which earned scientists the Nobel Prize in the 1920s. Both cats and dogs were important in the development of the heart-lung machine which made open-heart surgery possible. Later, dogs were the first animals used in the attempt to conquer the rejection of transplanted organs. Once again, a Nobel Prize for medicine (1990) was awarded to researchers who studied the immunological basis of organ rejection using dogs. Dogs are still important in heart research and in the safety testing of new medicines. [7,670]

Equid
A century ago, horses were used to produce an antitoxin to treat diphtheria. This was the forerunner of diphtheria vaccination. Scientists have cloned the first member of the equine family: a mule, a cross between a mare and a donkey. The first cloned mule, Idaho Gem, was born in May 2003. This mule clone may help shed some light on human cancers. There are close similarities between humans and horses at the cellular level, which could provide a number of insights about how the relationship of certain chemicals in the body affects both normal and abnormal cell activity. [9,002]

Ferret
Because ferrets are domesticated and their menstrual cycle is easily monitored, they have become important in reproduction research. In particular, they have been useful in determining the environmental factors that influence seasonal reproductive activity and the physiological factors which control puberty and ovulation. In addition, they have been used to study the control of sexual differentiation in the brain, as well as to develop a bird flu vaccine and anti-emetics for cancer patients. [970]

Guinea pig
Guinea pigs have contributed to 23 Nobel prizes for medicine with studies leading to the discovery of Vitamin C, the tuberculosis bacterium, and adrenaline, as well as the development of vaccines for diphtheria and tuberculosis, replacement heart valves, blood transfusion, kidney dialysis, antibiotics, anticoagulants and asthma medicines. Today, guinea pigs are still widely used in medical research, particularly in the study of respiratory, nervous and immune systems. [29,019]

Hamster
An interesting use of hamsters in medical research is the study of the neural basis of our internal daily (circadian) rhythms – in humans this controls our sleep-wake cycle over a 24h period. The control centre for these rhythms was found in the hypothalamus of the brain, and the use of hamsters clearly demonstrated the role of the hormone melatonin in this daily cycle. [4,232]

Insect
One insect widely used in scientific and medical research is the fruitfly, or Drosophila melanogaster, a 3mm-long insect of the kind that accumulates around spoiled fruit. It has been used in genetics and developmental biology for almost a century, and today several thousand scientists are working on many different aspects of the fruitfly. Its importance for human health was recognised by the award of the Nobel prize for medicine in 1995, for work on the genetic control of early embryonic development. Mutant flies with defects in any of several thousand genes are available, and the entire genome has recently been sequenced. These creatures have also helped to develop drugs designed to combat pathogens responsible for a range of diseases from skin infections to pneumonia and meningitis. Recent research with fruitflies has focused on the pathology of Alzheimer’s disease; although the flies have a very simple brain they have highly developed muscles and nerves.

Jellyfish
These ocean creatures may have a painful and sometimes deadly sting, but they have proved to be very useful in scientific and medical research. Some researchers have used jellyfish to search for an effective anti-venom to save victims of Sea Wasp stings, whilst others are studying the chemicals in jellyfish for possible use in treating cancer. A bioluminescent chemical found in a type of jellyfish from the Pacific has already allowed doctors to trace the movement of specific chemicals through the body and could help reveal ways to inactivate defective genes, such as those in Huntington's disease.

Kangaroo
Researchers have recently sequenced the genome of these Australian marsupials, allowing the identification of regions of similarity and difference that can provide clues about the structure and function of genes vital to human health and development. Kangaroo meat is the best source of CLA (conjugated linoleic acid) – a healthy fat which possesses potential anti-carcinogenic and anti-diabetic properties, in addition to reducing obesity and high blood pressure. Studies are now underway to determine what is responsible for CLA formation and why kangaroo meat contains so much. If successful, it may be possible to increase the CLA content of other meats and products to increase potential health benefits to consumers.

Lagomorph
Rabbits and hares are lagomorphs. Rabbits are often used in research into respiratory disease such as asthma. Cystic fibrosis – a genetic lung disease – has been investigated using rabbits in addition to mice. At present, researchers are assessing whether gene replacement therapy could prevent cystic fibrosis in newborn rabbits, which could have a huge impact on therapies for patients with the condition. Rabbits are commonly used to produce antibodies and in safety testing. [22,818]

Mouse
Mice are the most commonly used vertebrate animals in medical research. This trend looks likely to continue now that both mouse and human genomes have been mapped (99% of human genes are found in mice) allowing human genetic disorders and diseases to be studied in much greater detail. Often, the only way of determining the function of a human gene is to insert it into, or remove it from, the mouse genome. Many thousands of mouse strains now exist, some frozen as embryos. Eventually, such techniques could lead to new methods of preventing, treating or even curing genetic diseases and other diseases with a genetic component. 97% of all genetically modified animals used in research are mice. [1,961,049]

Nematode
Nematodes, like C elegans, have 'wormed' their way into scientific history, significantly contributing to the research carried out by three winners of the 2002 Nobel Prize for medicine. Despite having a relatively small number of cells, these flatworms still have a nervous system that even includes a primitive brain, making them ideal for studying the development of nerve cells.
C elegans was the first animal to have its genome sequenced, back in 1998.

[khchris(original)]

Octopus
The Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 regulates scientific procedures which may cause pain, suffering, distress or lasting harm to "protected animals"; it refers to these as "regulated procedures". Protected animals are defined in the Act as all living vertebrate animals, except man, as well as one invertebrate species, the common octopus. The octopus was added 12 years ago after extensive discussion concluded that its well developed nervous system may make it capable of feeling pain. However, no regulated procedures have been carried out using the octopus since its inclusion. [0]

Pig
The release of the pig genome sequence has resulted in an increase in medical research using these intelligent animals. Stroke research is just one area in which pigs and miniature pigs have generated new insights. Transplanting genetically modified pig cells could hold the key to treating patients with stroke, and indeed other brain disorders, like Parkinson's disease. This process of transplanting genetically modified animal tissues, cells and organs into humans (xenotransplantation) has potential for treating a number of diseases. Pig heart valves have been used for many years to replace diseased or damaged human heart valves. [3,574]

Quail
Research into head and facial development is an important use of quails. In one study, the embryos from both quails and ducks were used to implant neural crest cells (simple cells that arise very early in development) from one species into the other. The result was quails with duckbills or "duails", and ducks with quail beaks or "qucks". This suggests that head and facial diversification is due to neural crest cells, and further work should help to unravel the underlying causes of craniofacial defects, which are among the most common birth defects. Quails are also used to test the safety of agrochemicals in the environment. [quail: 1,025 all birds: 113,156]

Rat
The lab rat is the latest animal to spill its genetic secrets, and after man and mouse, was the third mammal to have its genome sequenced. This will further raise the rat's high profile in medical research, where it is the second most commonly used mammal after the mouse. Over the last century, the rat's image has been transformed from plague carrier to indispensable tool in experimental medicine and drug development. Rats have frequently been used in research focusing on cardiovascular diseases, psychiatric disorders, spinal injury, stroke, diabetes, surgery, transplantation, auto-immune disorders, cancer and bone healing. In drug development, the rat is routinely used to test the efficacy and safety of potential medicines prior to human clinical trials. [424,527]

Sheep
A 6.6kg Finn Dorset lamb 6LLS was born after a 148 day gestation period on 5 July 1996 – the birthday of Dolly the sheep. This animal is undoubtedly the world's most famous sheep: the first mammal cloned from an adult cell. Despite some controversy, the benefits of successful animal cloning could be enormous. Research aims to produce medicines in the milk of such animals, for example, the blood clotting agent factor IX for haemophilia or alpha-1-antitrypsin for cystic fibrosis and other lung conditions. Clones can also provide a greater understanding of the development of the embryo and of ageing and age-related diseases. Conventional sheep, and cattle, are also used in veterinary research. [29,329]

Tamarin
Cotton-top tamarin monkeys have a high rate of spontaneous colon cancer. They develop colon cancer in a very similar way to humans, so investigations of whether colon cancer is heritable – as it can be in humans – are now a focus of research. Other monkeys used in research include macaques and marmosets, mostly in brain research and in safety testing of new medicines. [marmosets & tamarins: 910, all primates: 4,652]

Urchin
The study in sea urchins of the molecular processes that drive cell division in all organisms led to the Nobel Prize for medicine in 2001. Scientists have found that the key to species-specific fertilisation in sea urchins is a sperm protein called bindin. While mammal eggs - mouse and human, for instance - don't have a thick jelly coating like sea urchin eggs, they do have complex sugars on the surface, and it is likely that these sugars attach to sperm cell proteins to trigger reproduction. Understanding the reproductive processes of sea urchins could lead to solutions for human reproductive problems, including new approaches to contraception.

Vole
Voles are commonly used in studying social traits. A particular gene that produces a protein called vasopressin in their brains contributes to these behaviours. Adult male offspring with the long version of the gene have more of the protein in brain areas involved in social behaviour and parenting. These males tend to investigate female odours, greet strangers more readily and nurture their young. So variability in the length of the gene could help account for differences in normal human personality traits, such as shyness, and could perhaps influence conditions like autism and social anxiety disorders. [up to 2,333 in the 'other mammals' category which also includes bats and shrews]

Watanabe rabbit
Medical researchers are indebted to the Watanabe rabbit – a breed that suffers from a rare genetic defect causing fatally high levels of blood cholesterol. A similar gene defect in children causes cholesterol levels between three and seven times higher than normal, usually leading to death before their teens. Watanabe rabbits have been used in the development of an artificial liver to remove excess cholesterol from the blood of these children, and are proving crucial in the search for better treatments. [all rabbits: 22,818]

Xenopus
Xenopus Laevis is a species of frog native to Africa, which was used for many years as a biological assay to determine human pregnancy; female Xenopus respond to a hormone present in pregnant women's urine (chorionic gonadotrophin) by laying eggs. They are still vital in vertebrate biology, where they have been used to identify how cells become specialised for certain functions within the body, and how these cells contribute to the structure of the body during embryonic development. In cell biology and biochemistry, they have proved essential in studying chromosome replication, control of the cell cycle, and various signaling pathways. [all amphibians: 20,970]

Yellow-beaked cleaner shrimp
When you're a small shrimp in the fish world, it pays to know how to dance. The yellow-beaked cleaner shrimps perform a special 'rocking dance' to advertise their parasite cleaning services to host fish. Dancing guarantees the tiny crustacean easy access to food. These tiny shrimps remove parasites from more than 35 different species of coral reef fish such as coral trout, rock cod and sweetlip and will even move in and out of their mouth and gills without being eaten. This research supports the idea that unrelated organisms can communicate with each other via advertising signals.

Zebrafish
The zebrafish is important in studying develop-mental origins of health and disease. Their embryos are transparent and develop outside the body, allowing simple study of the developing embryo. Zebrafish research provides a unique visual approach to under-standing the developmental defects in adult diseases and age-related abnormalities, such as cardiovascular diseases. Fish are the third most commonly used protected species in research after mice and rats: other types of fish are widely used in safety tests for environmental protection. [all fish: 232,854]

[Norma J]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

the question of "animal rights" is a peculiar one-- it is religious in origin or is there a rational basis for it?

human "rights" have been conquered (by revolution, political struggle, etc), although propagandists like to say these rights are "god given" or "inherent" or what not. yah right.

now we want to extend the same rights and privileges to animals? seems to me that outside of some eastern religions only people who grew up watching bambi or mickey mouse are capable of that thinking.

experimentation with animals is not "torture", as the point is not to inflict pain or derive pleasure from it. the pain & suffering of animals is a side effect of the testing.

as human animals we lack proper fangs, speed, a tough hide & other natural advantages, but we have our knowledge. obtaining knowledge is part of our natural survival mechanisms. how we go about getting that knowledge can be morally ambiguous, but do not fool yourselves into thinking that we can do without it. unless you're waiting for another species to come & eat your young.

If Hitler were alive, he'd agree with you.

[Norma J]

Originally Posted by Bastian

I`m for animal testing if it`s neccesary to find cures for human diseases, and if there`s no alternative method that works without testing.
I`m against animal testing for cosmetica.



True. And even watching people die that you don`t love is worse.

Again, you're all thinking 1D. A ban on animal testing (which is indeed torture, it doesn't matter whether the intention is to torture or not, the outcome is the same) does not mean there would not be cure for disease. It would mean that people either have to come up to the plate and take resonsibility for their own actions (and diseases) and test on themselves (There is people with sickness', terminal or not, who would quite happily test on themselves to help thereselves and others) as opposed to subjective something innocent which has not consented to such harm and cruelty. It baffles me as to why man can send man to the fucking moon, but has to use animals for testing. Thats pathetic.

Since when is it selfish and greedy to have the urge of being healthy and living a long life without suffering?

Do you see the irony in this statement?
It's all sorts of hypocritical and selfishness.

[Cantankerous]

Originally Posted by Diesel

if coke was around in them days hitler would have been a sound guy, but alas history is history.

now where is his established ol' gestapo drink man

but it was diesel!!!

[Norma J]

Originally Posted by khchris(original)

Wrong. Nobody is looking at it that way. The question was simple: do you agree with it or not. The question is based on what is conclusive up to this point.

And up to this point, animal testing has done some good, as horrible as it may seem to all of us.

Try not to forget that nobody here is 100% for it. All of us atleast have doubts about the nature of it.

But i do agree with the person who said that those who are 100% against it are a tiny bit naive, not completely naive, but a tiny bit to the extent that those people may be slightly narrow-minded in thinking that it has absolutely no place in this world.

Your post is invalid as I already stated I am quite aware of the outcome. No naivity or short/narrow-mindedness, on the contrary.

[atari 2600]

The basic guidelines for animal testing should probably be redrafted, but there is already a lot of regulation in place that does a fairly good job regarding this touchy issue already. Additional regulation probably isn't going to help clear up some of the inevitable & valid moral dilemmas regarding what is probably too high of a percentage of the animal testing that goes on, but, seriously, show me a system that is perfect.

So, yes, I'm for it.

I'm also someone that doesn't agree with the Endangered Species Act as it is written. Environmentalists and Conversationists praise the Endangered Species Act to this day, but the ugly truth is that it's primarily utilized to actually benefit wealthy corporations. The Endangered Species Act has put smaller companies out of business and people out of their homes far more than it ever has saved any species.

[nature scene]

The ESA and many other environmental acts, atari. Rent-seeking companies use political sway and regulation to kill their competition, all in the name of the environment (see the Clean Air Act)
It's called "Bootleggers and Baptists," referring to the idea that the Baptists were the moral opposition to alcohol, but the Bootleggers were the ones that actually stood to gain from prohibition since there was profit to be made. In our case here, environmentalists that care about looking good more than doing good are the Baptists.
But many times, a close analysis of acts like the Endangered Species Act show that the regulations may have in fact created perverse incentives to kill animals that are on the list because of the economic consequences a landowner faces if the government finds the animals.
I'm all for protecting endangered species and decreasing pollution, but I am avidly opposed to nominal legislation that creates monopolies while producing effects opposite of those that were intended.

Sorry, that was off the subject.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by Norma J

Again, you're all thinking 1D. A ban on animal testing (which is indeed torture, it doesn't matter whether the intention is to torture or not, the outcome is the same) does not mean there would not be cure for disease. It would mean that people either have to come up to the plate and take resonsibility for their own actions (and diseases) and test on themselves (There is people with sickness', terminal or not, who would quite happily test on themselves to help thereselves and others) as opposed to subjective something innocent which has not consented to such harm and cruelty. It baffles me as to why man can send man to the fucking moon, but has to use animals for testing. Thats pathetic.



Do you see the irony in this statement?
It's all sorts of hypocritical and selfishness.

you're saying that you'd rather not have all the medical developements and research khchris listed?

what is this strange emotional retardation you have that allows you to place the so-called "innocent" animals above the (presumably) guilty human race?

[Norma J]

The fact that I , or you, have no right to do it. It's not rocket science.

[Toilet & Bowels]

and who decides whether we have the right to do it or not? you?

[Cantankerous]

Originally Posted by Norma J

It's not rocket science.

have you ever even built a rocket? i have.

[HaydenAsche]

Do you guys want a fucking rash from your blush? Of course not. Let's put it on innocent rabbits first.