[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

look here you fucking absolutist dolts, and tell me if it doesn't make a difference to have a rational person or a religious nutcase:

 

yes, obama keeps killing people with drones, ran into a legal mess trying to close guantanamo, hasn't finished the war in afghanistan, but he pulled out of iraq and he's not trying to fulfill idiotic prophecies by religiously-addled lunatics from 2000 years ago.

You realize that Barack pulled out of Iraq following to a T every detail of the Bush negotiated?

for all the shit that people talk about obama not being "progressive' enough there are millions of wingnuts saying that he's not doing enough to support israel, that he needs to start a war with iran, that he should have escalated with russia over georgia, etc. etc.

Oh you mean like how Democratic hawks like John Kerry are always suggesting?

if you want president willard, then don't vote, but don't come crying about it.

I ain't crying, just keeping it real yo.

look at this motherfucker:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Mid...#axzz26ThHxHU2

you fucking imbecile

Way to fear-monger !@#$%!, are you seriously reading what you type here or has a DNC spambot hijacked your account? Broham, we all know Mitt ain't gonna win, and that the Republicans are just playing bad cop to Mr. Obama's good cop. Then with all of us duped, the president can continue to carry out the Clinton plans of secret wars all over the world.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

No, Clinton's wars were all in secret, but what exactly do you think provoked the Bush era in the first place? Did y'all forget about places like Haiti, Columbia, or Somalia? The No-Fly-Zone over Iraq was enforced until 2000 including hundreds of sorties being dropped during that time. Lets not forget about Liberia, the Congo, Central African Republic, Cambodia, Kenya and Tanzania, Macedonia (twice), Bosnia (three times), Serbia (twice), All places where thousands of US boots were on the ground under the Clinton administration.. Further, Clinton was the master of the international free-trade agreements which birthed the Walmart effect. Clinton is not a Saint, rather, like Mr. Obama he is just a bit more persuasive than the Republicans, but they are all in the same bed together.

The Republicans are just a bit more bellicose in their wargames, but understand that both parties are complicit in this evil. If you again feel comfortable supporting all that baggage, I am a bit surprised to see it. Wishful thinking on your part, but wishful thinking it remains.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

The Republicans are just a bit more bellicose in their wargames, but understand that both parties are complicit in this evil. If you again feel comfortable supporting all that baggage, I am a bit surprised to see it. Wishful thinking on your part, but wishful thinking it remains.

oh jeezus fuck. "just a little more bellicose" means a million iraqi dead and an economy in shambles, but that's nothing to your supreme wisdom i guess.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

oh jeezus fuck. "just a little more bellicose" means a million iraqi dead and an economy in shambles, but that's nothing to your supreme wisdom i guess.

What, you think the Democrats wouldn't have done the same? Lets not kid ourselves here and expose each others mutual naivete

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

What, you think the Democrats wouldn't have done the same? Lets not kid ourselves here and expose each others mutual naivete

yep, it makes no difference to your know-it-allness.

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Oh you mean like how Democratic hawks like John Kerry are always suggesting?

that's what fucking big-tent parties do-- they contain diverse constituences that fight it out for control of the party. within the democrats you have the progressives and the blue dogs, you have the unions and the christian left and the black caucus and the hispanic caucus and the feminists and prolifers and all manner of factions--

only in an addled ignorant imagination should all these people tow the party line in north-korean fashion and think as one. POWER IS NEGOTIATED, YOU FUCKING DOLT. every time "obama" (read "the executive branch") wants some legislation passed he (they) need(s) to talk and horse trade with every fucking faction to gain support. but no, you call this "a machine" and close your brain. fine. keep looking for all and every answer in your bong.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

only in an addled ignorant imagination should all these people tow the party line in north-korean fashion and think as one. POWER IS NEGOTIATED, YOU FUCKING DOLT. every time obama wants some legislation passed he needs to talk to horse trade with every fucking faction to gain support. but no, you call this "a machine" and close your brain. fine. keep looking for all and every answer in your bong.

 

haha, you are so cute. You really do believe in all this theater don't you? Enough to get angry at me, when I am just the messenger. So let me get this straight, when your party blatantly lies to their constituency to "negotiate power" it is perfectly fine, but when the other guys do it you fear-monger rally against them for the same crime? Lies are lies, and when they cost human lives and cause misery and suffering to millions of people, then they are mutually wrong whomever the liar may be at time..

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

 

haha, you are so cute. You really do believe in all this theater don't you? Enough to get angry at me, when I am just the messenger. So let me get this straight, when your party blatantly lies to their constituency to "negotiate power" it is perfectly fine, but when the other guys do it you fear-monger rally against them for the same crime? Lies are lies, and when they cost human lives and cause misery and suffering to millions of people, then they are mutually wrong whomever the liar may be at time..

and yet for all your claims of worldly wisdom, you simply avoided the question of whether you had ACTUALLY ever done any community work or if it was just "good ideas of what to do" that you were offering.

[Pookie]

I always click on this thread when I'm dead tired (like now). I'd love to join in and will another time.

But for now: what Suchfriends said.

(America was kicked out of Iraq by the way, as Suchfriends said. Obama virtually begged to be allowed to stay.)

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Pookie

I always click on this thread when I'm dead tired (like now). I'd love to join in and will another time.

But for now: what Suchfriends said.

(America was kicked out of Iraq by the way, as Suchfriends said. Obama virtually begged to be allowed to stay.)

Okay, Michelle Bachmann

but yeah, fine, FINE.

i need to go grocery shopping while suchfriends puts together his extensive community organizing resume. i'm sure he needs just a few more hours.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

Okay, Michelle Bachmann

but yeah, fine, FINE.

i need to go grocery shopping while suchfriends puts together his extensive community organizing resume. i'm sure he needs just a few more hours.

I'm sorry, I don't recall seeing you post yours?

 

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

look here you fucking absolutist dolts, and tell me if it doesn't make a difference to have a rational person or a religious nutcase in charge, even if the rational person isn't your emperor-messiah:

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...nd-george-bush

yes, obama keeps killing people with drones, ran into a legal mess trying to close guantanamo, hasn't finished the war in afghanistan, authorized domestic espionage, but he also pulled out of iraq, and more importantly he's not trying to fulfill idiotic prophecies by religiously-addled lunatics from 2000 years ago.

for all the shit that people talk about obama not being "progressive' enough there are millions of wingnuts equally crying that he's not doing enough to support israel, that he needs to start a war with iran, that he should have escalated with russia over georgia, that he's an agent of Kenyan anticolonialism, etc.

you can't fucking please everybody, and i'm not saying that i'm 100% pleased with obama, but shit, the "what's the alternative" question isn't just rethorical, it's a real life-and-death question when it comes to a lot of issue-- even if it's not EVERY FUCKING ISSUE.

if you want someone like president willard to take over, then don't vote for his oponent if that makes you feel clever or morally superior, but don't come crying about it when he takes over and begins another shitstorm-- we haven't even finished cleaning up the crap from the last one, either in foreign policy or in the economy, and the last thing we need is more tax cuts for millionaires and more military spending, but you say it's all a mirage and it makes no difference. very well you deluded fucks.

just take a look at this motherfucker:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/opinio...ack/index.html
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Mid...#axzz26ThHxHU2

you fucking imbeciles

obama is far from perfect but at least he believes in science-- you don't

This (in a slightly less bombastic tone)

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

"love it or leave it"

Didn't realize that was the replacement slogan for Si Su Puede

then again..

 

[Pookie]

Just a few points of correction for now:

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

yes, obama keeps killing people with drones,

Hugely escalated their use.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ran into a legal mess trying to close guantanamo,

He didn't particularly care. He never planned to close Guantanamo anyway, he was just going to relocate it on to US soil (hence the closure being blocked) and keep the same indefinite detention policy. And anyway there's less use for a Guantanamo under Obama because he just kills suspects rather than going through the messy process of actually capturing and imprisoning them. Not even Bush was despicable enough a human being to think of this one. Incidentally did you know that when Obama's drones kill a suspected terrorist that person is officially a terrorist until somebody comes forward to prove otherwise? So the figures for terrorist (never proven because there's never a trial) versus innocent civilian is skewed as a result. Human Rights Watch put the estimated figure of civilian to genuine target as 15:1 but admit that that's probably a pretty conservative estimate.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

hasn't finished the war in afghanistan,

Escalated it.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

but he also pulled out of iraq,

No. I can't believe you're not aware of the facts surrounding the "withdrawal". They're common knowledge.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

we haven't even finished cleaning up the crap from the last one, either in foreign policy

No attempt has been made to "clear up the mess" in foreign policy. It's just a continuation and in many cases an escalation.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Pookie

No attempt has been made to "clear up the mess" in foreign policy. It's just a continuation and in many cases an escalation.

Shhh.. you'll knock over !@#$%!'s sandcastle

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

and what exactly has the Democratic Party added of value to the international community? I would say not much more or less than President Bush, and no more or less than Mitt Romney would do. Our President is the most charismatic internationally, but his actual policies and actions have been as criminal and reprehensible internationally as any other president in any history. Stop and reflect on that for a second and realize the depth of what I am trying to say, but understand that internationally is where I am MOST critical of the American political system

In general i would say that Obamas administration hasnt differed very much from Bush's at all, in fact i think theyve dealt with killing people who need to be killed in a much more efficient way than Bush. Something i approve of.

If anything they havent shown ENOUGH military support for the liberals and reformers in the middle east - BTW that does not neccessarily mean a full scale land invasion, there are many other tactics available that can help reformers in those countries. There are special operations missions going on in Egypt, Syria, Libya right now, and more power to them. Im assuming you support liberal reformers in those countries, right?

For me, the American domestic policy is what offends me most, especially both your partys' attitude to healthcare, as well as to voting rights and yur willingless to send poor people (read; Black and Hispanic people) to jail for drug offences when white people get off. Thats something your country needs to sort out, but you dont need to neglect your internationalist responsibilities at the same time.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

In general i would say that Obamas administration hasnt differed very much from Bush's at all, in fact i think theyve dealt with killing people who need to be killed in a much more efficient way than Bush. Something i approve of.

If anything they havent shown ENOUGH military support for the liberals and reformers in the middle east - BTW that does not neccessarily mean a full scale land invasion, there are many other tactics available that can help reformers in those countries. There are special operations missions going on in Egypt, Syria, Libya right now, and more power to them. Im assuming you support liberal reformers in those countries, right?

I'm aware that you're only trolling but on the basis that there are people who hold genuine similar views, do you really think that the Gulf monarchies would back "liberal reformers" in these countries?

And who are these people who need to be killed and who decides that and who decides the death penalty can be administered by one country in another country without even a trial?

[Keeping It Simple]

Originally Posted by Pookie

I'm aware that you're only trolling but on the basis that there are people who hold genuine similar views, do you really think that the Gulf monarchies would back "liberal reformers" in these countries?

And who are these people who need to be killed and who decides that and who decides the death penalty can be administered by one country in another country without even a trial?

Are you trolling?

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by Pookie

I'm aware that you're only trolling but on the basis that there are people who hold genuine similar views, do you really think that the Gulf monarchies would back "liberal reformers" in these countries?

And who are these people who need to be killed and who decides that and who decides the death penalty can be administered by one country in another country without even a trial?

Im not trolling actually, but i will answer you on Friday or saturday when ive had enough to drink to be bored enough to care about this futile conversaton

[!@#$%!]

Pookie - 'Merica is an imperialistic country. It was since its inception-- the colony of an empire. It got its independence mainly so it could expand unfettered and bleed the slaves while eating the indians. I have no illusions about that. I don't expect the president of an imperialistic state to be a saint or to bring us "Paradise Now!" The best I can expect for he/she to be less terrible than the previous one-- and that he is.

The whole issue of Iraq is a lot more complicated pf course-- BUsh negotiated the agreements but his party was very much for staying in Iraq
Cheney: http://thinkprogress.org/security/20...raq/?mobile=nc
Bush's national security advisor: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...bFK_story.html
McCain: http://thepage.time.com/2011/12/14/r...ccain-on-iraq/

is that enough to show the difference you think?

here's mccain on iran: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg

oh, how funny he was with his little hands. You've also read Willard's latest statements on the Middle East I'm sure.

The issue for me is not whether we're going to meddle-- yes, American foreign policy is shit, I'm not arguing that-- I grew up in Latin America for fucks sakes. I live in what used to be Mexico (so does Suchfriends). Shit's absurd. We embargo communist Cuba but buy everything in communist China (this goes to the issue of votes and horse trading I was talking about earlier). The thing is, these things aren't done by supreme decree-- these things are negotiated and fought over for years--decades-- sometimes centuries like the slavery issue.

The election is not about whether this country is going to be run by saints-- in the foreign policy arena, it's about whether we're going to meddle with some semblance of rationality or by trying to fulfill the apocalyptic prophecies of a former cokehead.

And on that front I agree with Ikara Cult -- killing with precision, if you're intent on killing anything or anyone, is better than killing with daisy cutters and carpet bombing and destroyed water lines and invasion forces. Do I approve morally? No. Do I think this is the lesser of two evils? Yes I do. And lesser matters when it comes to "evll".

ON the domestic agenda, no contest-- President Willard would bring more austerity of the kind that's wrecking the British economy and social fabric. He would most certainly roll back the clock on gay rights (his church was the main player behind Prop 8), and would continue the policies that keep making the poor poorer and the rich richer. Women's rights? Ha ha ha. And universal health care? Forget the fuck about it-- he's washed his hands off his own work in Massachusetts. Teabaggers would run the budget-- look at Willard's fucking running mate.

So yeah, I get enraged when people say "it's the same". It's not the fucking same. The world is not clearly divided between the goodies and the baddies--we're all assholes of varying degrees, some worse than others, and the choice matters because it moves the needle of what's "normal" a little bit to one side or the other. And that counts for something today and in the long run.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I'm sorry, I don't recall seeing you post yours?

since you ask

over the years, i've worked on things like:

- human rights (got tired of sending letters to governments and other shit)
- labor organization
- war protests (not just marching but organizing)
- rural electrification (satisfying, but not without side effects)
- voter registration (yeah, you don't approve, you prefer emperor-messiahs)
- affordable housing at municipal & state level
- university politics (both college + grad school... both largely pointless, but good for the experience)
- environmental crap. both advocacy and fieldwork.
- public health seems to be a recurrent theme. i'm currently involved in this through work and i can see the value of federal policy as it trickles to the community level.
- other shit i can't remember at this hour, fuck, i had a long day at work.

i've seen with my own eyes that people are rotten everyehwere, and they are good everywhere. the "machine" operates at every level, local work is connected with local politics and it goes up the chain to city, state, national, international, and everybody has a fucking ego, wants more power, has issues.

still, there are people who do, and there are people who just whine about it from the sidelines. fuck your useless good for nothing "nihilism". if things are so bad do something about it instead of crying like an internet bitch. stop trying to be a saint and a prophet and fucking do something instead.

[Pookie]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

And on that front I agree with Ikara Cult -- killing with precision, if you're intent on killing anything or anyone, is better than killing with daisy cutters and carpet bombing and destroyed water lines and invasion forces. Do I approve morally? No. Do I think this is the lesser of two evils? Yes I do. And lesser matters when it comes to "evll".

I'll answer more fully later but in the meantime this stood out to me. The "precision" (lol) killing isn't an alternative to carpet bombing and invasion forces, it's an accompaniment. If anything the "precision" (rofl) killing is an alternative to the indefinite detention of alleged terrorists. And so being is by far the greater of two evils, especially as the "precision" (ffs) killing has claimed the innocent lives of at least 15 times the number of intended targets killed.

Otherwise, what you said leads me to believe we have more in common on this subject than I thought (possibly due to my scanning the thread rather than reading it properly?!).

This is interesting (not intended as a direct response to your points but on a similar subject):

Closer Than You Think: Top 15 Things Romney and Obama Agree On