[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

well all im saying is that you're saying when good things happen we do them and when bad things happen these are things that happen, like nebulous things out there. not things that we do. its a convenient way of pretending we are innocent or half innocent and striving to be good and all that shit

ay, torquemada, the obsession with sin! and guilt! so fucking christian!

i just came back from having some beers with my lovely accomplice and i swear i only have 60 seconds to spare for you but here till tomorrow:

we are all fucking culpable, but we aren't ominipotent either. renounce grandiosity and have the courage and humility to cultivate your own garden and learn to be content when it bears fruit. then move on to the next thing. you are not the emperor of the world. you can't fix everything.

cynics are always or almost always broken-hearted disappointed romantics. get over yourself. it's not about you. it's about everything that's around you. fix what you can and enjoy your labor. it will add up in the long run. you just can't save the world all on your own. you cannot suffer for the whole world. pick your battles, fight them, win, lose, win, lose, win, lose, on and fucking on, like that. moses never saw the promise land for a reason--nobody ever does. that doesn't mean we crap our pants and devote ourselves to fingerpointing. go help someone/ win something. finding fault with everything only leads to paralysis. okay, good night & happy monday, sucka-- it's time to get to work now.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

well all im saying is that you're saying when good things happen we do them and when bad things happen these are things that happen, like nebulous things out there. not things that we do. its a convenient way of pretending we are innocent or half innocent and striving to be good and all that shit

ay, torquemada, the obsession with sin! and guilt! so fucking christian!

i just came back from having some beers with my lovely accomplice and i swear i only have 60 seconds to spare for you but here till tomorrow:

we are all fucking culpable, collectively, but we aren't ominipotent either. renounce grandiosity and have the courage and humility to cultivate your own garden and learn to be content when it bears fruit. then move on to the next thing. you are not the emperor of the world. you can't fix everything.

cynics are always or almost always broken-hearted disappointed romantics. get over yourself. it's not about you. it's about everything that's around you. fix what you can and enjoy your labor. it will add up in the long run. you just can't save the world all on your own. you cannot suffer for the whole world. pick your battles, fight them, win, lose, win, lose, win, lose, on and fucking on, like that. moses never saw the promised land for a reason--nobody ever does. that doesn't mean we crap our pants and devote ourselves to fingerpointing and crying. go help someone/ win something / make something useful. finding fault with everything only leads to paralysis. appreciate the tiny morsels because it's all we ever get. okay, good night & happy monday, sucka-- it's time to get to work now.

[dead_battery]

again you are attributing to me positions that i don't hold. there's also no 'obsession' with sin and guilt in what i'm saying. what there is is a pessimistic view of human life and a refusal to believe in its latest religious trend which is secular progressive incremental improvement of the world. none of this asks for or tries to impart a judgement/punishment scenario which is what sin and guilt is based on.

you are instructing me on what to do with my life to me but it looks like you are really talking to yourself.

i don't think i've gotten anything out of this discussion so i'll leave it there.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

well i am a recovering revolutionary utopian optimist.

if you read gray further you will see how todays progressivism and optimism and ideals of incremental improvement are descended from our religious past and are historically unique cultural ideologies. this is a fancy way of saying 'bullshit'.

but despite what you might think adopting positions like gray does does not imply conservatism. if anything his pessimism is a wish to defend liberal civilization even if it may be a hopeless and impossible endeavour.

this is what i like about gray and other pessimists, that at their core they are trying to defend basic civility in an indifferent universe. this to me is more noble and sensible than believing in moral progress as our state murders and tortures people on a daily basis.

It's more directly linked to conservatism than John Gray's stuff, but you might find some of the arguments in this book interesting.

 

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/genera...=9780199968978

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

It's more directly linked to conservatism than John Gray's stuff, but you might find some of the arguments in this book interesting.

 

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/genera...=9780199968978

Bloody hell,don't justify his negativity more than he already is.

Put it this way-where does being a miserable moose get you? No where. So what's the point in that outlook?

[static-harmony]

I don't really care for Gay marriage either way it goes.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by static-harmony

I don't really care for Gay marriage either way it goes.

not that you need it/ want it at this point, but it matters for things like immigration, insurance, adoption, taxes, inheritance, financial planning/retirement benefits, visitation/end of life issues, and a whole host of other legal protections including, of course, divorce: i personally know two gay couples who broke up after many years of cohabitation, and in each case the dumpees walked away with nothing.

it's not about romance, or religion. it's a civil rights issue.

[static-harmony]

I know what you mean, but I am still blah about it. Maybe I just feel jaded about it because it has been a long time coming.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by static-harmony

I know what you mean, but I am still blah about it. Maybe I just feel jaded about it because it has been a long time coming.

yeah journos & spin doctors are saying that it's over and done and all that and while i'm encouraged by the shift in public opinion it's not going to be any kind of instant coffee already with sugar in it. there's still going to be a lot of opposition to deal with.

i mean, just look at universal health care: it took 100 years to bring about some form of it (and "obamacare" was really a nixon plan), and the full implementation is still a year away-- and still, it continues to find opposition at every step. very highly fucking annoying.

but still victory is in sight and that's a good thing.

just hang in there & keep punching.

[Rob Instigator]

If you do a google search for "gay British Old Actor" the first response is Ian McKellen's wikipedia page.

Ian McKellen was asked about how he felt about gay marriage, and he said "I thought the great thing about being gay was that we did not have to get married."

[demonrail666]

I'm sure he appreciates having the option, though.

[static-harmony]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

yeah journos & spin doctors are saying that it's over and done and all that and while i'm encouraged by the shift in public opinion it's not going to be any kind of instant coffee already with sugar in it. there's still going to be a lot of opposition to deal with.

i mean, just look at universal health care: it took 100 years to bring about some form of it (and "obamacare" was really a nixon plan), and the full implementation is still a year away-- and still, it continues to find opposition at every step. very highly fucking annoying.

but still victory is in sight and that's a good thing.

just hang in there & keep punching.

True it is not going to go well with most conservatives of this nation. Unless your a log cabin Republican. I guess we will have to see and wait what the courts say in June.

[Rob Instigator]

ObamaCare is not state fuinded health care. it is state mandeated health insurance purchasing.

it benefits the status quo, and enriches the con-artists running the health insurance companies, the same fucks who steadily raise rates on doctors for their malpractice insurance, forcing the doctors to raise their rates, effectively pricing out poor people from adequate health care.

fuck the insurance companies.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

ObamaCare is not state fuinded health care. it is state mandeated health insurance purchasing.

it benefits the status quo, and enriches the con-artists running the health insurance companies, the same fucks who steadily raise rates on doctors for their malpractice insurance, forcing the doctors to raise their rates, effectively pricing out poor people from adequate health care.

fuck the insurance companies.

not really-- you can opt to no buy health insurance and pay a very reasonable fee.

why a fee?

because uninsured patients in emergency rooms are a huge cost driver for hospitals

but guess what-- if you can't afford insurance there are subsidies to help you.

and companies can only make a limited profit now-- if they make more they send their customers a refund.

lastly, you can't be denied coverage for preexisting conditions.

i don't see the problem here. well maybe if everyone were responsible to pay for their health care and emergency rooms weren't mandated to treat patients regardless of coverage we wouldn't need the fee for the uninsured. but i figure those who can afford health care without insurance can help the general welfare.

[Rob Instigator]

The problem is that it all rides on the back of insurance companies whose bottom line concern is raking in as much $$ as possible. Socialized medicine, for all it's drawbacks, (and what does not have drawbacks) emphasizes the most good for the most people, or should.

forcing people to buy health insurance does nto lower health costs. it does not guarantee medical care, it does not provide the indigent and poor with health care. what it does is make it a state law that we have to purchase something.
I find that bullshit in the extreme.

Imagine if, instead of the local government's paying for public schools outright, they instead just passed a law stating that people had to pay for "insurance" in case their kids needed schooling. is that not just stupid and needlessly bureaucratic?

[Rob Instigator]

Insurance is a con-game anyways, no matter how you slice it.

the biggest con-game in the USA is the stock market, teh second biggest is the Insurance industry.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

The problem is that it all rides on the back of insurance companies whose bottom line concern is raking in as much $$ as possible.

oh no man! that's no longer the case after the ACA! 80-85% must be spent on medical care or refunded to customers. the profit margin is thereby reined in.

http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/20...in-your-state/

i can't reply to the rest of your post right now but cost is another story. however, the ACA is an improvement overall. certainly not perfect, but an improvement.

socialized medicine would never have passed congress. incidentally, i'm against it (though i'm for it as an option, e.g., join an HMO if you want)

[!@#$%!]

okay i stole a couple of minutes between phone calls. let me answer quickly.

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Imagine if, instead of the local government's paying for public schools outright, they instead just passed a law stating that people had to pay for "insurance" in case their kids needed schooling. is that not just stupid and needlessly bureaucratic?

the "government" doesn't pay for schools "outright". people pay taxes, which in turn pay for schools. so everyone, even those who not use them, pay for public schools. and there is a mandate to educate all children-- either in public, private, or homeschools, everyone must comply.

if you don't like insurance, you have the option to pay a health care tax, which is the so-called penalty for not buying insurance in the market. so that way you can pay for health care "outright". so basicaly you have a choice between paying a tax ("outright") or buying insurance ("just in case").

of course the tax is small and not enough to cover everyone-- just the ones who skip out on their bills, in theory anyway.

[Rob Instigator]

the government IS the people. They use taxes to pay for everything, especially the stuff we never hear about. Nearly 1 TRILLION in black Ops secret budget. yet, the whiners cry about a 60 million dollar budget for the National Endowment for the Arts, or money for PBS.

[!@#$%!]

black ops, fine, but the ACA is not like what you're saying, is my point.

the ACA may not be perfect but it's a huge step in providing a health care safety net without removing freedom of choice, and while it expands the insurance market it also limits profits and provides extended coverage for the poor. it's not a bad law.

don't believe the sarah palin logic of "the goverment is forcing me to buy something". those are people who don't have the public interest in mind.