[truncated]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

far be it from me to to speak on other poster's behalf, especially a guttersnipe like hayden asche, but, for me bikini kill weren't about music, their music was secondary to their politics, and this is readily apparent in the quality of their music. listening to what they play on their instruments it sounds thoughtless and conservative.

take for example public enemy, if you subtract their political message you are still left with some very ground breaking, incredibly well thought out, and just plain great music, if you subtract the politics from bikini kill you are left with some very unremarkable punk rock. it's lame when a band uses music solely as a vehicle for their cause.

not to mention that by making an issue out of being female they are automatically segregating themselves and defeating their own purpose.

Extremely well-said.

[jon boy]

Would you listen to the Sex Pistols if you were a conservative?[/quote]

depends if you wanted to appear like a bit of a rebel at the young conservatives meeting i suppose. i am not suggesting you are.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

That's fine, I respect your opinion. It just always struck me as standard punk rock. Certainly not groundbreaking, but not anymore thoughtless than your average punk band who bangs away on three chords and screams a lot. It's simple and stupidly defiant.

i've got nothing against simplicity, i just don't really like any standard punk bands.

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

I thought that was the purpose??

i thought their purpose was to be treated with equal respect?

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

i thought their purpose was to be treated with equal respect?

I think that was more a characteristic of 2nd wave feminism.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

I think that was more a characteristic of 2nd wave feminism.

well i have no idea what wave of feminism bikini kill were.
i thought the whole point was that they wanted equal respect for females within the rock underground, not split entirely and form their own enclave? if they were trying to segregate themselves then that makes them more lame, and proves me right. if they were ever about making music why would they want to shut themselves off from other musicians?

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

I don't know. I'm no expert on the subject by any means.

I just always thought Riot Grrl was more about female empowerment. That they were a bunch of chicks who were pissed off at the male dominated aesthetics of punk rock and wanted to create music by females for females to voice their anger at the way women were treated in society. Rape, sexuality, issues like that. Not so much that they wanted to be treated equally. More of a "we're females and proud of it and you can't tell us how to act" sort of a thing. They created a medium to voice their frustrations.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

I don't know. I'm no expert on the subject by any means.

I just always thought Riot Grrl was more about female empowerment. That they were a bunch of chicks who were pissed off at the male dominated aesthetics of punk rock and wanted to create music by females for females to voice their anger at the way women were treated in society. Rape, sexuality, issues like that. Not so much that they wanted to be treated equally. More of a "we're females and proud of it and you can't tell us how to act" sort of a thing. They created a medium to voice their frustrations.

yeah but the approach they took is not conducive to communicating a message, i mean if you want people to hear what you have to say then the way to do that isn't to create your own private indie-ghetto, which is what happened with riot grrrl

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

yeah but the approach they took is not conducive to communicating a message, i mean if you want people to hear what you have to say then the way to do that isn't to create your own private indie-ghetto, which is what happened with riot grrrl

They formed a society made up of females with the goal of spreading their message to other females. The intended audience were women who were dismayed with their role in society. Not society as a whole.

[Toilet & Bowels]

yeah, but they were only talking to a very small minority of females.
i mean i guess it's obvious that most people are largely drawn to music made by people of their own gender/race etc, and maybe they were trying to get more girls to take an interest in music. but at the same time by creating a scene for themselves, which they succeded in doing, a scene that still exists today, it just wreeks volumes of lameness that a band wouldn't want to be recognized for their music, which is what any band who alines themself with riot grrl is doing now. things like ladyfest suggest that stuff isn't strong enough to survive unless they split from everything else. but then maybe it's just for girls who aren't into music made by guys.

i guess this is a circular arguement really.

anyway, i'm much more interested in female musicians who don't feel the need to separate themselves from guys, and are prepared to muck in with everyone else and be judged on the merits of their music (e.g. kim gordon) rather than something other (bikini kill).

[Savage Clone]

Misogynist.

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

yeah, but they were only talking to a very small minority of females.
i mean i guess it's obvious that most people are largely drawn to music made by people of their own gender/race etc, and maybe they were trying to get more girls to take an interest in music. but at the same time by creating a scene for themselves, which they succeded in doing, a scene that still exists today, it just wreeks volumes of lameness that a band wouldn't want to be recognized for their music, which is what any band who alines themself with riot grrl is doing now. things like ladyfest suggest that stuff isn't strong enough to survive unless they split from everything else. but then maybe it's just for girls who aren't into music made by guys.

i guess this is a circular arguement really.

anyway, i'm much more interested in female musicians who don't feel the need to separate themselves from guys, and are prepared to muck in with everyone else and be judged on the merits of their music (e.g. kim gordon) rather than something other (bikini kill).

Meh, I don't know. I don't see anything wrong with their logic. They made music that kind of went against the popular notion of what music made by female musicians were supposed to sound like. It was loud, vulgar, offensive. The message being be yourself, don't let society tell you how to act, what to say, or what kind of music you can make as a woman.

And I don't necessarily know that they wouldn't want to be judged by the merits of their music. Just because they're fighting for something doesn't mean they can't be legitimate musicians as well. Gil-Scott Heron for example. Or Public Enemy as you said. It's just that instead of making hip hop they're making punk rock. Which by it's very nature is a bunch of racket played by pissed off folks.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by AllHandsOnTheBigOne

And I don't necessarily know that they wouldn't want to be judged by the merits of their music. Just because they're fighting for something doesn't mean they can't be legitimate musicians as well. Gil-Scott Heron for example. Or Public Enemy as you said. It's just that instead of making hip hop they're making punk rock. Which by it's very nature is a bunch of racket played by pissed off folks.

that's what i was trying to highlight earlier, public enemy were ground breaking in terms of their music aswell as their politics. if you go back and listen to fear of a black planet, nobody had ever produced a hiphop record with beats with that much depth, there's so much going on in the music itself regardless of what chuck d was saying in his rhymes that PE's records would be classics with or without the lyrical subject matter, i saw an interview with hank shocklee talking about how they produced that record and they were getting up to all kinds of tricks to make that record sound different to anything that had come out before. i couldn't say the same about bikini kill, i mean they weren't pushing music in any new directions, even in terms of being sloppy, noisey or aggressive. it sounded like they were trying to turn the clock back 15 years. as far as gil scott-heron goes, i mean he was just about as high a calibre of lyricist as it's possible to be, and he played with really great musicians, or on the records where it's just him with a drum beat his lyrics are so well written that they don't really need to be carried by any musical accompniment.

[kingcoffee]

Originally Posted by Saturnine

It makes it shittier. There is a reason why I don't listen to Neil Young.

You don't like Neil Young? Im really surprised. I think he is a great musician.

[krastian]

You know I've never really even thought of Bikini Kill as a "political band." They may have certain "female liberation themes," but I never really thought they were annoyingly obsessed about it.


If you see me
If you see me
Just go away
Just go away
If I run
If I run
Don't follow me
Just go away
Cuz I like you
But baby it's all wrong

[Savage Clone]

Originally Posted by kingcoffee

You don't like Neil Young? Im really surprised. I think he is a great musician.

I think the Dead Man soundtrack is great, but there are no words.
Best review I have heard regarding his unlistenably caricaturish new album:

"It sounds like it was written by a 12-year-old raised by Democrats."
Spot on.

It's the same problem. No point of view or sentiment can make up for crappy unimaginative music.
Cutting Bikini Kill slack for being boring musicians because their "hearts are in the right place" is like weighting the grades of slow children more heavily, and basically devaluing the efforts of kids who are actually smart.
Music has to be able to survive on its own merits.

[krastian]

^As opposed to Courtney? Come on.....that shit is in the same vein in terms of what they wrote about.....you ache, I ache, everything is horrible blah blah blah. It's not like shit like that is supposed to enlighten the world or anything.

[PAULYBEE2656]

bikini kill rule. first 2 records cd is great!! if only huggy bear released the split on cd it would be greater. although i have the vinyl sooooo

[AllHandsOnTheBigOne]

Originally Posted by Saturnine

There were plenty of ways for them to do that without getting the annoying little sister vibe going. Trust me.
Their logic is dumb, first and foremost because presenting yourself as a little girl and wanting to be treated as an equal component in society is bullshit. Not to mention that holding all-female music festivals is partaking and promoting separatism, which I personally do not agree with in any sense. That would make them hypocrites, because if they really did want to be treated like equals, they would not have alienated themselves from the men.

I think there's a slight difference between wanting to be treated as equals and wanting to be treated as women without having to take shit for it.

But you can criticize the logic of the movement all you want. I could really care less. The riot grrl politics have no bearing on my enjoyment of the music.

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

that's what i was trying to highlight earlier, public enemy were ground breaking in terms of their music aswell as their politics. if you go back and listen to fear of a black planet, nobody had ever produced a hiphop record with beats with that much depth, there's so much going on in the music itself regardless of what chuck d was saying in his rhymes that PE's records would be classics with or without the lyrical subject matter, i saw an interview with hank shocklee talking about how they produced that record and they were getting up to all kinds of tricks to make that record sound different to anything that had come out before. i couldn't say the same about bikini kill, i mean they weren't pushing music in any new directions, even in terms of being sloppy, noisey or aggressive. it sounded like they were trying to turn the clock back 15 years. as far as gil scott-heron goes, i mean he was just about as high a calibre of lyricist as it's possible to be, and he played with really great musicians, or on the records where it's just him with a drum beat his lyrics are so well written that they don't really need to be carried by any musical accompniment.

That's fine. I've never thought music has to be groundbreaking or pushing things in new directions. Shit, half the music I listen to doesn't fall under that criteria. As long as it's well done I'm happy.

[atsonicpark]

 

[batreleaser]

hey i just noticed this thread.yeah that riot girl in Z Gun 3 go me into Bikini Kill again. They were the only band in that scene that had good full lengths. They are very comparable to the wipers if you ask me; virtuosic stoke out punk. Bratmobile had some good eps.