[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

i find it incredibly frustrating that almost nobody is prepared to admit the fall fell off 25 years ago

I think you're spot on. The Fall may be 'interesting' now, but haven't created a 'great' album probably since Bend Sinister (although I do think I am Kurious Oranj is massively underrated).

[atsonicpark]

I think the albums after bend sinister but before real new fall were mostly crappy...

[atsonicpark]

Yeah!

One of the things that I think contributed to the current state of British rock music is the the sort of parochial bullying that bands and people alike are subjected to by both the press and people who happen to work in the music industry and rely on it for information, gig-goers etc.

That thing that has been going for quite a number of years now when someone who doesn't revere the musical and communal moment that is on offer at that particular time is singled out for being 'pompous', 'a contrarian', a 'mood-killer' etc. The bullying that bands that might or might not have been good are put through for a few inch columns on whatever rag has a music section that flirts with otherness in music that barely scratches the surface of what otherness really means.

[batreleaser]

in my circle of friends, the smiths are one of those bands everyone can agree on. no matter what music one's into, we can put on 'strangeways...' and everyone will be satisfied. besides half of 'meat is murder, i like everything the smiths have done.

as for the fall, they arent really big in the states at all. i know plenty of people who dont know them, and a lot of their best records are out of print or ridiculously hard to get. which sucks, theyve been one of my favorite bands since i was 15.

[demonrail666]

There certainly seems to be an increasing pressure on people to 'get' The Fall, that's being applied by people that have very little insight whatsoever regarding music, but simply wish to elevate MES as some kind of icon of difference.

The Fall are fashionable right now, just as football is fashionable. This means that people with very little insight into either need to find an angle they're more comfortable with in dealing with them. People like the idea of a grumpy iconoclast - hence the elevation by Guardian readers and their ilk of figures such as MES and someone like Zidane. I had a conversation with someone who knew absolutely nothing about football but was absolutely convinced that Zidane was the greatest thing ever to kick a ball. I get the feeling he would've been much the same had the topic turned to The Fall.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

There certainly seems to be an increasing pressure on people to 'get' The Fall, that's being applied by people that have very little insight whatsoever regarding music, but simply wish to elevate MES as some kind of icon of difference.

The Fall are fashionable right now, just as football is fashionable. This means that people with very little insight into either need to find an angle they're more comfortable with in dealing with them. People like the idea of a grumpy iconoclast - hence the elevation by Guardian readers and their ilk of figures such as MES and someone like Zidane. I had a conversation with someone who knew absolutely nothing about football but was absolutely convinced that Zidane was the greatest thing ever to kick a ball. I get the feeling he would've been much the same had the topic turned to The Fall.

One of the things that bugs me the most about these types is the fact that - just like our friend Nick Hornby would like - they seem to use music as a commodity that is there to be mixed with more mundane aspects of their lifestyle like sports, hobbies etc.

This I think creates a situation where certain bands are filed under things of no artistic merit, like the food you eat or the travel destinations that you choose. The truth of the matter that art in general is a way of escapism - for better or worse - from all those everyday things that are there already and might or might not make us feel like we're trapped, the last thing that you want to do is mix them with pleasurable and volatile things like records.

I also hate it when someone has to make it a definitive experience of everything that they listen to and everyone else has to listen to their rantings about it like they should be thought of as something all that special. Fuck off, enjoy the music and shut your gob.

[demonrail666]

When a musical preference becomes used as an indicator of a certain lifestyle, it does become very problematic, I agree. Listening to The Fall (while watching Zidane) has become a statement in and of itself for a generation of postpunk existentialists. People eulogise them with the usual "eeew, The Fall" or "eeew, Zidane" but rarely get beyond that. They like them because of what they hope it says about them to other people. That's been going on for years though. Right now it happens to be focused on a mancunian songwriter and a French footballer. God knows who the next generation will adopt.

Hopefully they will leave the football to the football ground.

[demonrail666]

You think music boards are bad. You should see the crap spouted by the same kind of people we're talking about her on football boards. you can almost hear the tinkling of brandy glasses as they post another pointless hymn about the 'sheer artistry' of the 2002 French mid-field. It's as though they're discussing a bottle of wine. It gets amazingly tiresome, amazingly quickly.

Anyone who thinks that footballer or actors are capable of being statistically as interesting as good musicians need a kick in the balls. Seriously.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by sarramkrop

I also hate it when someone has to make it a definitive experience of everything that they listen to and everyone else has to listen to their rantings about it like they should be thought of as something all that special. Fuck off, enjoy the music and shut your gob.

Agreed, people who keep mouthing off about the fall being having been good for the last 25 years and then ram crappy records down people throats (literally ram them down), firstly need to get a grip, and secondly need to appreciate that experience is subjective, and as glice will agree, that the fall have been indisputabley on a downward spiral since marc e smith started letting his wives run his business for him. the fall could do with taking a lesson from the beatles and split when the singer tries to get his wife in on the act.

[demonrail666]

Well I think a great footballer is the equal of a great musician, but anyway. My point is that they become entry points into a lifestyle that rarely has much to do with what they actually do. They become icons of a general attitude or world-view. And people that treat them as such are invariably rather dull -half-people, made up of book choices, and record collections and sporting heroes, rather than an actual personality.

I really don't care for people deciding that such and such sport personality is their hero/heroine, I just don't want what is ultimately a physical activity of no artistic merit to be mixed with one that is, while also forcing parallels between the two that are simply not there. Throw into the pits of hell also all those culinary heroes that get labelled artists when they are in fact just skilled at what they do. Seriously, the sooner people realise how to differentiate between different activities/vocations, the better for everyone.

[ni'k]

"everytime i get a good review in the gaurdian i think im doing something wrong" - thats not the exact quote but its something similiar. at the end of the day mes is laughing all the way to the bank.

and ive heard all this "the fall havent done anything good in 25 years" bullshit before and its tiresome. the only album they ever released that is consistantly good the whole way thru is hex. of course theres loads of filler and mediocre songs on everything else - so what? thats not the point. the point is that they have been releasing songs that are pretty much consistantly fucking better than what most of their contemporaries could do in their entire career.

some people need to stop trying to validate some mythic connection they had as true fall fans back in the obscure days.

I partially agree with that, but I'm still not sure that the ''Fall better than most'' mantra is necessarily true. There are so many other bands that make/made better songs than The Fall. Don't take this the wrong way, they are one of my favourite bands but they are regarded highly in too much of an irrational and distorted way.

[ni'k]

well to me they are. the thing that pisses me off is that i havent been able to find one other band i can give a shit about anywhere near the shits i give for the fall.

open to recommendations

[Glice]

Saying 'people eulogise the Fall too much' is pretty much the same mis-placed emotional investment that people (like me) give to saying they're the best thing since sliced bread.

I'll say that I've never got anyone trying to convince me I'm wrong when I eulogise about Hank Williams or Bach (my other all-timers), but the Fall seem to evoke a certain disdain in people.

And, on the subject of football, as a non-football fan I find the fondue-footballers are infinitely less interesting than people who do like football or people who don't.

[atsonicpark]

holy shit, this page (aside from my posts) features most of the smartest people on the sonic youth board having intelligent conversations... about the fall!

the fall rules!

i got negative repped for this post btw.

[ni'k]

the fall are better than bread. i used to work in a bakery so i would know.