[SpaceCadetHayden]

I Love the Muslims. Probably not quite as much as I love the latin country immigrants but close.

I mean, SOMALI FOOD? Y'all ever had that shit? Fuck anybody else who makes food.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

you folks are missing the issue...

if European muslims feel disenfranchised (and as I see it, are disenfranchised) does this not provoke them? If anyone is disenfranchised through intolerance and racism does it not provoke them?

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

you folks are missing the issue...

if European muslims feel disenfranchised (and as I see it, are disenfranchised) does this not provoke them? If anyone is disenfranchised through intolerance and racism does it not provoke them?

how do they feel disenfranchised? examples not vague theories.

europe is a large place, very large so the idea that one small community in a country feels bad because they didnt get town planning to build their mosque doesnt mean all of europe's muslims are the same way. if one community in Missouri doesn't get planning for their mosque are all american muslims disenfranchised? listen to the examples people have written here about how there are no problems in the communities they live in for muslims to openly seek their own religion.

where are you getting your theories from? what are you basing any of this on?

[SONIC GAIL]

I don't honestly know enough about the region to put in a valid opinion. But I aint got nothin against muslims. They sell me really cheap ciggarettes here and all of thier jiffy stores carry "tobacco" pipes at better prices than head shops. I mean getting your bong and munchies at the Jiffy you can't beat that. Praise ALA

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by jon boy

how do they feel disenfranchised? examples not vague theories.

europe is a large place, very large so the idea that one small community in a country feels bad because they didnt get town planning to build their mosque doesnt mean all of europe's muslims are the same way. if one community in Missouri doesn't get planning for their mosque are all american muslims disenfranchised? listen to the examples people have written here about how there are no problems in the communities they live in for muslims to openly seek their own religion.

where are you getting your theories from? what are you basing any of this on?

I get you, but with this thread point blank, if in Marsaille the mosque is not allowed to be built, it will provoke not only local French muslims who are currently meeting for prayer in basements and living rooms, but will become a spearhead for a larger outrage. Remember how absolutely pissed off the European muslims were about that cartoon depicting the Prophet? The fire spread far and wide across muslim communities in many European cities and regions..

This particular mosque in rural france is symbolic of a larger issue, and this very problem is playing itself out in a dozen places across the continent. Much like the FIFA thread, I am not going to dig up hours and hours of news articles to document all this, sorry Jon Boy, you either got to take me on my word on this or not, but for the past few years there has been a growing trend of intolerance against European muslims, specifically blocked or opposing their places of worship. If you can't see it, nothing I can do will show you, and I am sorry we disagree, but you simply accusing me of being ambiguous is silly and aside from the point entirely..

Its nothing personal, and yet the way you threw back some old gripe about the Holocaust to me makes me sad that you seem to be making it as such..

[jon boy]

yeh that old holocaust thing, lets just forget about that huh? you just come accross as an idiot, sorry but you do.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by jon boy

yeh that old holocaust thing, lets just forget about that huh? you just come accross as an idiot, sorry but you do.

and your a poet laureate right?

here is some reading for ya..

New European Mosques

 

Photo: Roland Halbe


All across Europe, the controversial construction of new mosques is raising questions about aesthetics and assimilation, faith and tolerance—and liberal democracy itself. MICHAEL Z. WISE reports.

From April 2006
UK and Europe Mosque Protests

By Jeffrey Imm • on June 1, 2010

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Everyone has a right to believe, a right to freedom of worship, and a right to freedom of conscience. These are universal human rights that are rights for all people around the world, regardless of whether we agree with their religion or faith (or lack thereof). Because we support such unquestioned freedom of conscience in a world where attacks on houses of worship are routine acts of hate, Responsible for Equality And Liberty (R.E.A.L.) is deeply concerned about the growing practice in the United Kingdom and Europe of protests at or against individual mosques.
In the United Kingdom, we are concerned about the recent protests and violence by protesters among the English Defence League (EDL) on April 3 and on May 2, 2010, and their efforts to block the mosque in Dudley.
Serbs block Bosnia mosque ceremony

 

The protests show the strength of nationalist feelings


Serb nationalists in Bosnia-Hercegovina have blocked an attempt to start rebuilding a mosque destroyed during the civil war.
Sunday, August 24, 2008

Italy: Northern League seeks to block mosque building


Italy's Northern League, the populist, xenophobic, sometimes separatist movement that is a key component of Silvio Berlusconi's governing coalition, has proposed new legislation which would in effect halt construction of new Islamic mosques.

and that was just a quick google search , I didn't make all this shit up.. Across Europe, in the UK, in Italy, in France, in Switzerland, in Germany, even in Eastern Europe and the Balkans there is a back lash and even persecution against Muslims and specifically the building of mosques... sorry if ya missed the news the past ten years or more but eh..

[Genteel Death]

Why do you not concentrate on the larger amount of racism that exists in your own country, since it's bigger than Europe itself?

[Glice]

The problem is that for every single instance of mosques being opposed in the UK, there's any number of cities we can point to that suggest otherwise. London, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds are flush with mosques. Bristol doesn't have a very big Muslim population by comparison, but it does have ample mosques. There's plenty of instances of people opposing the building of new synagogues (most recently in High Barnet). I know of a church that failed to get planning permission. You can see these things as symptomatic of a broader 'Islamophobia' if you like, but the issue is much more complex than that.

I'd also add that Islam is in a very different position to, say, Hinduism or Sikhism. There's been a Beth Din in London for ages; there are motions in place to get Sharia courts in place on a similar basis. Properly Hindu cremations are still impossible, and Sikh burial rites similarly.

I'm not saying that my part of Europe doesn't have pockets of worrying attitudes towards Islam, but without a proper knowledge of the complexity of the issue, and looking at comparable religious groups, the criticism just seems a bit high-minded and fatuous.

Have you got any comment to make on the widespread spraypainting of swastikas on synagogues in (sharp intake of breath) areas with a high population of Jews and Muslims?

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

and your a poet laureate right?

here is some reading for ya..

New European Mosques

 

Photo: Roland Halbe


All across Europe, the controversial construction of new mosques is raising questions about aesthetics and assimilation, faith and tolerance—and liberal democracy itself. MICHAEL Z. WISE reports.

From April 2006
UK and Europe Mosque Protests

By Jeffrey Imm • on June 1, 2010

• Print
• Comment Feed
• Stumble it
• Digg it
• del.icio.us
• Facebook

Everyone has a right to believe, a right to freedom of worship, and a right to freedom of conscience. These are universal human rights that are rights for all people around the world, regardless of whether we agree with their religion or faith (or lack thereof). Because we support such unquestioned freedom of conscience in a world where attacks on houses of worship are routine acts of hate, Responsible for Equality And Liberty (R.E.A.L.) is deeply concerned about the growing practice in the United Kingdom and Europe of protests at or against individual mosques.
In the United Kingdom, we are concerned about the recent protests and violence by protesters among the English Defence League (EDL) on April 3 and on May 2, 2010, and their efforts to block the mosque in Dudley.
Serbs block Bosnia mosque ceremony

 

The protests show the strength of nationalist feelings


Serb nationalists in Bosnia-Hercegovina have blocked an attempt to start rebuilding a mosque destroyed during the civil war.
Sunday, August 24, 2008

Italy: Northern League seeks to block mosque building


Italy's Northern League, the populist, xenophobic, sometimes separatist movement that is a key component of Silvio Berlusconi's governing coalition, has proposed new legislation which would in effect halt construction of new Islamic mosques.

and that was just a quick google search , I didn't make all this shit up.. Across Europe, in the UK, in Italy, in France, in Switzerland, in Germany, even in Eastern Europe and the Balkans there is a back lash and even persecution against Muslims and specifically the building of mosques... sorry if ya missed the news the past ten years or more but eh..

you have so much to learn, so much but that wont stop you running your keyboard off. sorry if your too idiotic to see that. from those stories which seem to sensationalize random acts by a minority you get the idea that europe is opposed to all mosques despite the fact that simply isnt true.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by jon boy

you have so much to learn, so much but that wont stop you running your keyboard off. sorry if your too idiotic to see that. from those stories which seem to sensationalize random acts by a minority you get the idea that europe is opposed to all mosques despite the fact that simply isnt true.

teach me all your wisdom, but can you manage to fit it in all of the 20 or so words you ever contribute to any thread here?

Originally Posted by Genteel Death

Why do you not concentrate on the larger amount of racism that exists in your own country, since it's bigger than Europe itself?

when don't I concentrate on American racism? (its safe to say I beat that dead horse beyond the grave)

with this thread I thought I would switch it up a bit

Originally Posted by Glice

The problem is that for every single instance of mosques being opposed in the UK, there's any number of cities we can point to that suggest otherwise. London, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds are flush with mosques. Bristol doesn't have a very big Muslim population by comparison, but it does have ample mosques. There's plenty of instances of people opposing the building of new synagogues (most recently in High Barnet). I know of a church that failed to get planning permission. You can see these things as symptomatic of a broader 'Islamophobia' if you like, but the issue is much more complex than that.

I'd also add that Islam is in a very different position to, say, Hinduism or Sikhism. There's been a Beth Din in London for ages; there are motions in place to get Sharia courts in place on a similar basis. Properly Hindu cremations are still impossible, and Sikh burial rites similarly.

I'm not saying that my part of Europe doesn't have pockets of worrying attitudes towards Islam, but without a proper knowledge of the complexity of the issue, and looking at comparable religious groups, the criticism just seems a bit high-minded and fatuous.

Have you got any comment to make on the widespread spraypainting of swastikas on synagogues in (sharp intake of breath) areas with a high population of Jews and Muslims?

It is a complex issue indeed, but it does seem cut and dry. If European communities continue to resist mosque development, it will bite them in the ass, just as Jim Crowe and the series of Gentleman's Agreements in US History bit it in the ass...
Sure, there are mosques being built in plenty of European communities, but that is not the beef that Muslims have there, their beef is with the communities that won't let mosques be built, and whether its a mosque or a church or a synagogue to prohibit its building is negative and intolerant. With European Muslims, it can be out right dangerous, and the history of Islamic radicalism and its tendency for violence is evidence enough (after all, this issue is not merely religion vs religion, but in reality is a complex mesh of history, colonialism, bad-blood, disenfranchisement, politics etc etc), I thought it was self-evident but I guess I am just a silly american overstepping my boundaries.. I will back off and let y'all do y'all thing, time will reveal itself in the end.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Sure, there are mosques being built in plenty of European communities, but that is not the beef that Muslims have there, their beef is with the communities that won't let mosques be built, and whether its a mosque or a church or a synagogue to prohibit its building is negative and intolerant. With European Muslims, it can be out right dangerous, and the history of Islamic radicalism and its tendency for violence is evidence enough (after all, this issue is not merely religion vs religion, but in reality is a complex mesh of history, colonialism, bad-blood, disenfranchisement, politics etc etc), I thought it was self-evident but I guess I am just a silly american overstepping my boundaries.. I will back off and let y'all do y'all thing, time will reveal itself in the end.

It's not really a question of you overstepping your boundaries - you have a valid point in that there's an increased resistance to certain high-profile Islamic activities. The problem is more in your tenor and presentation. Also, as a few have pointed out, it's well worth mentioning that the last decade of militant, radical 'Islamic' (I use that term very loosely) activity was focussed first on the states; it was only the later realisation that parts of Europe (Spain, England, Germany etc) were complicit in the US's foreign policy that lead to activities such as the July 7th bombings - and even so, there was nothing like the scale of activity that took place on September 11th.

Islamic radicalism is, to my mind, a mis-nomer. Islamic radicalism might mean the '77 revolution, or the Iranian guard, but there are very few vistas of orthodoxly Islamic thought that venerate groups such as Al-Quaeda; even in Radical Islamist Pakistan there's a desire to be separated from an internationally vilified terrorist organisation, and that includes those radicals who which to militate against the 'Westernisation' of Pakistani polity. There's a worrying trend of far-right Western politics that seeks to align terrorism with the more right-ist concerns of Islamic thought. The (apparently) popular resistance to a Sharia court comparable to London's Beth Din is much more denigrating to Islamic 'integration' (which has already happened in most senses) than the odd rejection of planning permission.

I can, however, only really speak for the UK, and even though the UK is a big territory, the problems in my locale are very, very different to the problems in, say, Blackburn or Penzance.

The article you linked above mentions Serbian nationalists; if you really think that the problems besetting Bosniaks at the moment (and for the last 30+ years) are in any way comparable to a Muslim in Hackney (east-London), then you really are way off-mark. I don't know the States, at all, but I'd imagine that's like comparing Alaska to Alabama. If it's not, then I apologise - just as you seem to assume Europe is a single, homogeneous territorial culture, I assume that USA is a massive and diffuse set of cultures, bound not even by geographical demarcation (the struggles of a NY Jew are doubtless completely different to a NY Shinto).

[Glice]

Oh, and one more thing - Muslims might not have it great, but they've also got used to a lot of British culture. I would be astonished if the rejection of a planning proposal were takenas 'Islamophobia' given that it's a bastard to build anything in the UK. Locally, some Muslims took over a derelict church recently, and the area's seen quite an improvement in prosperity (with related shops springing up to service the community) as result.

[Rob Instigator]

when do I say "dude?"

[Glice]

Dude. Any time you want.

[Glice]

And no-one's judging you if you precede it with "I like..."

[Rob Instigator]

No. They judge because jokes are interspersed with conversation.

"serious" people never joke around!

[pbradley]

In Civilization 4, I sometimes refuse to build mosques in my cities when it prompts me to.

Sometimes I also implement slavery.

[SONIC GAIL]

CHILL DUDES

[Glice]

Originally Posted by pbradley

In Civilization 4, I sometimes refuse to build mosques in my cities when it prompts me to.

Sometimes I also implement slavery.

Open borders agreement, spread some Confucianism. Have that, Montezuma!

Also, never play with Barbarians. They just fuck shit up.