[greenlight]

Soros is a bastard. When I see Washington Post I want to vomit (yeah I have seen Clinton News Network talking about Washignot Post recommending Hill
for President earlier today).

do not know how are you percieving this campaing, but I see it as one mean, dirty campaign, full of insults and scandals only on both sides and nothing else.

the fact that I am saying this choice is no choice is my opinion with which most of you disagree. to me both are mess. unfortunately to me it seems like no choice. i am scared of that women equally.

[greenlight]

I was just reffering to Severian surprise how he could be still running, so I thought of this thing called Celebrity Politics I saw in the leaked email above, which I found interesting and it actually make perfect sense, if you see how people are obsessed with celebrities these days.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by greenlight

Soros is a bastard. When I see Washington Post I want to vomit (yeah I have seen Clinton News Network talking about Washignot Post recommending Hill
for President earlier today).

do not know how you are percieving this campaing, but I see it as one mean, dirty campaign, full of insults and scandals only on both sides and nothing else.

the fact that I am saying this choice is no choice is my opinion with which most of you disagree. to me both are mess. unfortunately to me it seems like no choice. i am scared of that women equally.

if you think both candidates are the same you're either taking too many drugs or are seriously deranged

you say you see the washington post and you want to vomit but you don't bother reading the article i linked. it goes into detail about why they're at this point officially endorsing clinton. and no, it's not a "lesser of two evils" argument.

but of course you won't read it because god fordib you understand a different point of view. your head could explode or something.

just like you wanna vomit when you see the washington post, i wanna vomit when i hear trump speak and i wanna vomit when i read your nonsense in this thread.

fortunately this isn't your country and you don't vote here, so you can cheer all you want for putin's boy by pretending to be a neutral observer--which you aren't. your false equivalencies are just utter nonsense.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by greenlight

I was just reffering to Severian surprise how he could be still running, so I thought of this thing called Celebrity Politics I saw in the leaked email above, which I found interesting and it actually make perfect sense, if you see how people are obsessed with celebrities these days.

i disagree that trump endures because he's a celebrity.

he endures because he appeals to white working class voters who feel that the system is rigged against them.

this is a legitimate constituency with a legitimate problem.

unfortunately it's also compounded with scapegoating, racism, xenophobia, and all manner of absurdities just like nazism used the jews to blame for germany's problems. only now it's mexican rapists/drug dealers and muslim terrorists. and like mobutu he wants to jail his political opponents.

if i felt that trump offered actual workable solutions for the working class instead of lies and snake oil i would actually support him. but he's a scammer and a thief and an abusive psychopath lying demagogue. fucking wannabe banana republic tyrant. so no fucking way. NO FUCKING WAY.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i disagree that trump endures because he's a celebrity.

he endures because he appeals to white working class voters who feel that the system is rigged against them.

Honestly that is only part of it, I think the celebrity and TV persona really are a major contributing factor as to WHY such white nationalists (as Nate Silver has designated this demographic) even remotely believe Trump is "their guy" is because of the TV character he invented for himself. It is entirely a fabrication of television that portrays Trump as a successful businessman (he is definitively NOT), a charismatic personality (which before "the Donald" was commonly accepted as NOT being in anyway true), or even knowledgeable person in general. There is a great Frontline that came out recently lending a biography to the two candidates which makes a good case for this.

this is a legitimate constituency with a legitimate problem.

Personally I disagree in the sense that while the economic decline of lower-to-lower-middle class middle aged white men has been a consistent trend over the past 10-15 years I am not sure that Trump in anyway actually legitimately addresses their concerns. In particular, I wonder if in many respects this economic decline is actually self-inflicted, not merely by decades of supporting "fiscal conservatives" and "supply-side economics", but also by themselves not as a work force stay up to date with the trends in their respective industries and seek the appropriate training or education to shift with the times. For example, many of these guys used to make their living in manufacturing, and while this sector is certainly not what it was before the 1970s it certainly isn't like the US doesn't manufacture anything, indeed currently 51% of the American economy is still involved in manufacturing and by total dollar value output US manufacturing is still by far the largest in the world. There are a currently estimated ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND openings in manufacturing that are STILL unable to be filled because they require certification, training, or some college education that these middle aged white guys simply didn't pursue. Had they not been such dumbasses many of them would be making up to six figures annually instead of scapegoating "libtards" for their woes..

unfortunately it's also compounded with scapegoating, racism, xenophobia, and all manner of absurdities just like nazism used the jews to blame for germany's problems.

To be sure the Germans had more legitimate grievances that white America even if the Jews and Russians were not in any way the ones worthy of taking the blame. I think that about 25% of Trumpites are outright bigots or racists, and the other 10-15% are those that still tap dance around Republican ideological talking points.

and if i felt that trump offered actual workable solutions instead of lies and snake oil i would actually support him. but he's a scammer and a thief and an abusive psychopath lying demagogue. so no fucking way. NO FUCKING WAY.

I find this statement very interesting as Trump seems to be the epitome of all the conservative slime and not just because of racism/bigotry but also the insistence on continually proven failed economic ideology.

[!@#$%!]

@ suchfriends - your reply is quite extensive and my lunch just ended, and i have to get back to work, but yes to the (partially) self-inflicted part, voting against their interests and not pursuing education, etc.

sounds like the basic argument of "hilbilly elegy" which i've seen reviewed everywhere.

politicians however have part of the responsibility here. the educational opportunities aren't there or are too costly, or are left to the "free market" of for-profit universities that prey on the misguided, the health care system is a still a burden on businesses, unions were demolished, growing inequality and citizens united, etc.

germany with its consensus model is faring better under the same challenges. here, workers at the VW plant voted to NOT have a union so management doesn't know how to get worker feedback they way they do in their homebase.

anyway, part self-inflicted part failure of government policies but a decline anyway. and after trump university fleeced some hopefuls, the trump candidacy wants to fleece the rest.

 

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Personally I disagree in the sense that while the economic decline of lower-to-lower-middle class middle aged white men has been a consistent trend over the past 10-15 years I am not sure that Trump in anyway actually legitimately addresses their concerns. In particular, I wonder if in many respects this economic decline is actually self-inflicted, not merely by decades of supporting "fiscal conservatives" and "supply-side economics", but also by themselves not as a work force stay up to date with the trends in their respective industries and seek the appropriate training or education to shift with the times. For example, many of these guys used to make their living in manufacturing, and while this sector is certainly not what it was before the 1970s it certainly isn't like the US doesn't manufacture anything, indeed currently 51% of the American economy is still involved in manufacturing and by total dollar value output US manufacturing is still by far the largest in the world. There are a currently estimated ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND openings in manufacturing that are STILL unable to be filled because they require certification, training, or some college education that these middle aged white guys simply didn't pursue. Had they not been such dumbasses many of them would be making up to six figures annually instead of scapegoating "libtards" for their woes..

Boom.

Just want to add that since I work with and deal with many Brexiteers (brit equivalent of trumpenproletarians) I see their psychology.

Some people are motivated only by jealously and status - they MUST see immigrants suffer. They dont give a shit about anything other than seeing other people suffer. Their jobs and careers are secondary to these overriding emotional states of envy and aggression. I have seen a guy work himself up into frenzied rage by mentioning middle class people in a part of the city where property prices went up who he imagined now put on airs and graces because of their wealth. This was an upper/upper middle class man. The only thing keeping certain people in the game is being able to rank themselves against others and project their fears and anxieties outwards through sneering contempt and aggression. They want to be able to control and limit other peoples finances more than they want their own (employees, girlfriends etc.). It is a mistake to attribute rational motives to these people. They want to see the white working class working as slaves on farms and fields - that's not an embellishment. It's about stripping people and humiliating them. Their wealth and positions means nothing unless someone else can be humiliated. I have watched people sabotage their businesses to pursue these goals.

[greenlight]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

if you think both candidates are the same you're either taking too many drugs or are seriously deranged

you say you see the washington post and you want to vomit but you don't bother reading the article i linked. it goes into detail about why they're at this point officially endorsing clinton. and no, it's not a "lesser of two evils" argument.

but of course you won't read it because god fordib you understand a different point of view. your head could explode or something.

just like you wanna vomit when you see the washington post, i wanna vomit when i hear trump speak and i wanna vomit when i read your nonsense in this thread.

fortunately this isn't your country and you don't vote here, so you can cheer all you want for putin's boy by pretending to be a neutral observer--which you aren't. your false equivalencies are just utter nonsense.

so much hatred. no point argue with you.

I told you I heard about that Washington Post article earlier on CNN (and no it is not lesser of two evils arg.)

because I have opinion on her as being equally dangerous and scared of her makes me nonsense. it is just my opinion man. I have a right to be scared when I see all this anti russian talk coming from her mouth....oh, we got flat tire it must be Russians. maybe it is ok for you, but not for me living in the central Europe. don't give me that putin's boy bullshit! neutral observer? like you over there would not believe anything else unless it is comming out from CNN, are you actually owner of a passport?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

Boom.

Just want to add that since I work with and deal with many Brexiteers (brit equivalent of trumpenproletarians) I see their psychology.

Some people are motivated only by jealously and status - they MUST see immigrants suffer. They dont give a shit about anything other than seeing other people suffer. Their jobs and careers are secondary to these overriding emotional states of envy and aggression. I have seen a guy work himself up into frenzied rage by mentioning middle class people in a part of the city where property prices went up who he imagined now put on airs and graces because of their wealth. This was an upper/upper middle class man. The only thing keeping certain people in the game is being able to rank themselves against others and project their fears and anxieties outwards through sneering contempt and aggression. They want to be able to control and limit other peoples finances more than they want their own (employees, girlfriends etc.). It is a mistake to attribute rational motives to these people. They want to see the white working class working as slaves on farms and fields - that's not an embellishment. It's about stripping people and humiliating them. Their wealth and positions means nothing unless someone else can be humiliated. I have watched people sabotage their businesses to pursue these goals.

I think this touches on the core superstructure of institutional and societal racism. Racism is a mechanism so that people can express a sense of superiority where otherwise politically or economically there is no such superiority. Poor white people, under the ideology of racism, can still feel superior and entitled when compared to "minorities" and so they cling to this ideology as a matter of self-identity survival! Their very identity and sense of "self" is defined solely in contrast or comparison to other races, in particular, the fabricated idea of racial superiority.

In order to maintain this racist structure, racists must continually work to strip down "minorities" maintaining the status quo. Racists by definition must take their privileges at the direct expense of other people.

Further violence, intimidation, and terrorism are key components and mechanisms of shutting down opposition and creation a national psyche of racism.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

@ suchfriends - your reply is quite extensive and my lunch just ended, and i have to get back to work, but yes to the (partially) self-inflicted part, voting against their interests and not pursuing education, etc.

Definitely check out that recent Frontline, very very insightful perspective particularly in the Trump campaign because we all know a lot more about Hillary's history since she has been in the public eye for many decades now.

sounds like the basic argument of "hilbilly elegy" which i've seen reviewed everywhere.

politicians however have part of the responsibility here. the educational opportunities aren't there or are too costly, or are left to the "free market" of for-profit universities that prey on the misguided, the health care system is a still a burden on businesses, unions were demolished, growing inequality and citizens united, etc.

Many times the educational opportunities ARE there just not pursued hence the scapegoating. Those "for profit" predatory colleges usually fleece poor minorities and urban dwellers not the declining middle aged white male. I find it especially ironic considering many of these white nationalists ideologically support "pulling one's self up by the boot straps" approach meanwhile actually DO NOT do enough to pull themselves up by their own initiatives.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by greenlight

so much hatred. no point argue with you.

I told you I heard about that Washington Post article earlier on CNN (and no it is not lesser of two evils arg.)

because I have opinion on her as being equally dangerous and scared of her makes me nonsense. it is just my opinion man. I have a right to be scared when I see all this anti russian talk coming from her mouth....oh, we got flat tire it must be Russians. maybe it is ok for you, but not for me living in the central Europe. don't give me that putin's boy bullshit! neutral observer? like you over there would not believe anything else unless it is comming out from CNN, are you actually owner of a passport?

it's not hatred but righteous indignation.

and of course i own a passport-- you don't think i travel through UFO or teleportation do you?

putin is a gangster emperor for life and trump wants to be like him. fuck that shit. not in this country.

[evollove]

Anyone catch any of Trump's rally today? He finally got around to calling out the "global special interests" who control the banks and media. I guess someone slipped him a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Please trump. Just flat out say "Jews." Please. I want to know who agrees and where they live.

[!@#$%!]

@ suchfriends - i see how he made a splash by celebrity but his endurance is something else. i'll look for that frontline.

btw did you read hillbilly elegy?

and yes to the analysis of the racialization of class sadomasochism-- it's true

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Drjohnrock

Not exactly sure what you're referring to--televised US presidential debates? I didn't say "since 1960" because even though that was the first one, there was a sixteen year gap until they became a permanent part of the landscape in 1976. And I've seen taped portions of the 1960 debate--Kennedy and Nixon acted more or less like adults. I didn't think Nixon had it in him.

If you mean US presidential debates in general, I think Lincoln's debates were of a much higher quality than the ones on television.

As for debates in general, a proper debate, where one side supports a premise and the other attacks it, can be very enlightening and bears no relationship to Andre The Giant threatening Hulk Hogan.

Referring to debates in general, they always have just been an excuse and opportunity to create press releases and press copy for mass distribution, basically fodder for journalists and editors.. sure the television aspect changed the dynamics from just what is said to how it is delivered including things like tone of voice and body language BUT in the 21st century there is so much saturation coverage on TV and visual media that again now even TV debates are no longer necessary or functional.

The Lincoln-Douglass debates a perfect example of how the debate format is just a 19th century publicity stunt, transcripts and excerpts from this dominated the media coverage of the election of 1860, indeed Lincoln himself had it published as a book in time for the Election.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

@ suchfriends - i see how he made a splash by celebrity but his endurance is something else. i'll look for that frontline.

Remember the TV version of Trump had lasting success across several YEARS and was happening in tandem and simultaneously with the development of Fox News type sectarian programming.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-choice-2016/ (two hours very well spent)

btw did you read hillbilly elegy?

No but I will check it out mos def, so long as it doesn't read as an apologist narrative (like so many discussions of white racial identity politics in US)

[greenlight]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

it's not hatred but righteous indignation.

...so stop behave like a spoiled brat

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

of course i own a passport

really? i am surprised

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

is a gangster emperor for life and trump wants to be like him. fuck that shit. not in this country.

wow.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by greenlight

...so stop behave like a spoiled brat

really? i am surprised

wow.

so what happens if i tell you i have 2 passports? you'll have a seizure?

[dead_battery]

want to point out because its easy to forget but EVERY VALUE that right wingers prescribe eg. pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is not something they actually abide by. mostly these ideologies appeal to stupid rich people realizing the money has run out and staring reality in the face having suffered shocks to their sensations of control and power. at best they are ideals they admire in others. never have a met any right winger who lived by the shit they espoused. they are more likely to be old/lazy/greedy/rich etc.

again, its about seeing others suffer. when they see a foreigner do well because he's hard working they cannot fucking stand it.

[ilduclo]

 

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Remember the TV version of Trump had lasting success across several YEARS and was happening in tandem and simultaneously with the development of Fox News type sectarian programming.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-choice-2016/ (two hours very well spent)



No but I will check it out mos def, so long as it doesn't read as an apologist narrative (like so many discussions of white racial identity politics in US)

thanks

and from what i've read (reviews anyway, will check out the library soon) he places the blame squarely on his people

e.g. hating the government and abusing food stamps at the same time