[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by knox

Well, I got used to it. Many times at work or in school you will talk to hardcore christians and they will smile and talk to you and offer you a cookie, but deep down they are thinking you will go to hell. And they want you to. After all, they work so hard not to sin and you're a sinner, it would be unfair of their God to save me. So they think of me going to hell with a faint sense of pleasure while they offer me a cookie. It's fascinating to watch.

.

that my friend, is precisely the problem this thread hopes to address.. so many Christians use their religion to judge, condemn and even hate other people, when Jesus promoted people NOT to judge, NOT to condemn, and to abandon hate by ALL means.. for many Christians, to talk to other people is a kind of superficial niceity, and that is a shame. Evangelism is not to simply walk around throwing Jesus into everyone's faces.. it is to genuinely talk to people to empathize with them, spread some sincere love and understanding around, and generally make every situation more positive for having contributed.

Christians who WANT people to go to hell actually frighten me. When I was ministering on skid row, I didn't even have a bible, let alone thought to thump it.. I rarely even brought up Jesus.. what I did was walk around and just talk to folks with an open heart and a genuine ear to listen without judging a thing.. Hence why Jesus said "judge not" because Christians who are not judgmental make great listeners for people on the street who just need someone to talk to

I once walked up to a Christian highschool kid preaching there on the row, and he was telling some homeless dude all about hell and how much the dude was going to go there without Jesus! The nerve of that kid! How can you walk up to anyone and talk to them in such a disrespectful manner and expect anything but the obvious hostility he deserved! So I said, "Kid, listen, its not about hell and fire, its about love and peace! We are either ALL going to heaven, or we are ALL going to hell, but if heaven is such a limited place I don't want to be there, and if God is such a judgmental asshole, I want nothing to do with Him!"

He said, "So what about Hitler? Should Hitler go to heaven?"

I said, "If you saw Hitler in heaven would you want to leave or condemn God as well? I pray that the Devil himself is forgiven and that ALL things are in heaven. I would give up my place in line for anyone who couldn't get in for any reason."

that kid just walked away, probably more upset than he already was, but hopefully the idea of a heaven without judgment, a God without hell, might have buried a seed in his heart that will flip his lid after the fact. the homeless dude gave me a hug for listening to him rather than trying to talk over him like the kid, and we continued the conversation for twenty minutes more at least..

Bible thumpers beware, I will chew you up with love and kindness until all your bigotry and ignorance either consumes you or dissipates completely.

[knox]

the kid walked away because certain people are always looking for a reason to hate and belittle others, and if its not jesus, he'll find something else.

all the "non judgemental" people who wanted to listen to me ended up trying to convert me anyway.

out of curiosity, what do you say about christians opposing abortion and gay marriage affecting the laws and civil rights?

[akprodr]

Originally Posted by DeadDiscoDildo

Two religions, same "God".

Islam has its roots in Judaism as well. I don't remember their views on Jesus.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

I didnt know that? What are their roots?

How did they go from Jehova to Muhhamid?

[knox]

this muslim man told me that they accept jesus as a prophet from god.

[akprodr]

As a historical phenomenon, Islam originated in Arabia in the early 7th century.[29] Islamic texts depict Judaism and Christianity as prophetic successor traditions to the teachings of Abraham. The Qur'an calls Jews and Christians "People of the Book" (ahl al-kitāb), and distinguishes them from polytheists. Muslims believe that parts of the previously revealed scriptures, the Tawrat (Torah) and the Injil (Gospels), had become distorted—either in interpretation, in text, or both.[4]

From the wikipedia entry on Islam

[floatingslowly]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

describing the definition of christians does not in any way imply that the person doing the describing buys into it man. jeez, oklahoma really fucked you up man. wher did I say I was describing my personal beliefs?

I, and anyone in fact, can discourse on any topic, be it satanism, leprechauns, marxism, etc, and it does not mean they BELIEVE IT.

good sir, the "you" in "how the hell can you believe in a Son of God without believing in God to begin with???" was not "you"...

...(pointing now)...

...(pointing has stopped)...

it was the bizarro-world christian that YOU...

...(pointing again)...

described.

it's a logic fault.

titer down the paranoia, mah friend!

that said, let's totally talk about leprechauns now!

I vote atsonicpark.

[DeadDiscoDildo]

Originally Posted by akprodr

From the wikipedia entry on Islam

Interesting, never knew that.

[akprodr]

Originally Posted by DeadDiscoDildo

Interesting, never knew that.

See, my RC upbringing was good for something!

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by knox

Somethings worry me. Like in the US, the use of public funds in many schools to preach virginity disguised as "sex education". Like the fact I can easily watch many evangelical channels on cable blatantly preaching against other churches, religions, sexual orientations. Preaching hatred on TV.

These new "evangelical" branches operate exactly like corporations and preach superficiality, greed and consumerism. I am not saying they should not exist, I am saying their leaders should respond for tax evasion, extorsion and whatever it is that they do financially, and perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to get billboards, tv channels and newspapers. Blantantly or not, a lot of media is entangled with this and belongs to them.

Their rising today represents more of a social virus than the Catholic church. A lot of our achievements in civil rights, against homophobia, bigotry, racism and sexism are being fought against by this new rising bigot youth, I find that really worrying.

Organised religion, as any powerful institution, is a a perfect environment for corrupt, sociopathic and greedy human beings, one must keep that in mind, they'll be everywhere. It's not religion itself that sucks, it's the fact that humans use it for their own agenda.

For some one who is not a christian and does not believe in god you sure are interested in this thread.

If more little girls stayed "virgins" maybe they would'nt "need" abortions (which I am not opposed to in the proper circumstances)

Seems to me that you use your personal beliefs to fullfill your own agenda so how does that differ from religious groups?

You talk about equality in one post and the next speak of how the "Evangelists" should not be "allowed" to participate in the media.

You act like christian kids are the hitler youth or something.

So young and full of angst don't worry sweety you'll grow up and find someone else to hate besides god.

[SONIC GAIL]

Raised Catholic. Have not stepped into a church in over 7 years. I am a practicing believer in god and love and forgiveness.

[floatingslowly]

does being born dead and subsequently resuscitated count as resurrection?

what if my sides were scourged and needles were driven into my feet?

true story.

[pbradley]

Welcome back, FloatingJesus.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

that my friend, is precisely the problem this thread hopes to address.. so many Christians use their religion to judge, condemn and even hate other people, when Jesus promoted people NOT to judge, NOT to condemn, and to abandon hate by ALL means.. .

see, that's the cool stuff about not being a christian-- i can use my judgment to condemn and even hate religion, regardless of what jesus said!

 

[Hip Priest]

I am pretty involved in a Church of England (Anglican) church. My mother was raised Church of Ireland (Anglican) and my father presbyterian. Anglicanism, I think, does some good at trying to keep to the point and not adopt too much unnecessary stuff.

Greed...bullying...bigotry...hate...they are traits that some Christians have, but they are not Christian traits. Someone said that Christians striving to be sinless hate sinners; well that means they hate themselves, because a Christian who believes themselves to be sinless denies the very most basic point of being a Christian.

The Bible does not teach that being a Christian is the only way to end up in Heaven; in fact the Bible openly states that non-Christians may very well get into Heaven just as readily as Christians. It is utterly wrong to tell someone - anyone - that they are going to Hell. There are three main reasons for this: firstly, people can change; secondly, you can get there without being a CHristian; thirdly, it's God's choice, not yours, and He is rather better than you at choosing the right thing.

But that kind of thing stands in the way of bigotry and bullying, so it gets ignored.

If you ask me, and I fully realize that you didn't, I think a lot of Christians should drop the bullying and bigotry and focus a bit more on what Jesus said, and a lot of atheists should try not to copy the very bullying and bigotry that they claim to despise.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

I am pretty involved in a Church of England (Anglican) church. My mother was raised Church of Ireland (Anglican) and my father presbyterian. Anglicanism, I think, does some good at trying to keep to the point and not adopt too much unnecessary stuff.

Greed...bullying...bigotry...hate...they are traits that some Christians have, but they are not Christian traits. Someone said that Christians striving to be sinless hate sinners; well that means they hate themselves, because a Christian who believes themselves to be sinless denies the very most basic point of being a Christian.

The Bible does not teach that being a Christian is the only way to end up in Heaven; in fact the Bible openly states that non-Christians may very well get into Heaven just as readily as Christians. It is utterly wrong to tell someone - anyone - that they are going to Hell. There are two main reasons for this: firstly, people can change; secondly, you can get there without being a CHristian; thirdly, it's God's choice, not yours, and He is rather better than you at choosing the right thing.

But that kind of thing stands in the way of bigotry and bullying, so it gets ignored.

If you ask me, and I fully realize that you didn't, I think a lot of Christians should drop the bullying and bigotry and focus a bit more on what Jesus said, and a lot of atheists should try not to copy the very bullying and bigotry that they claim to despise.

hip priest i know you're a very nice person (at least here on the interwebs) so kindly explain me this one:

“No one approaches the Father but through me.” (John 14:6)

oh yeah. it's there...

[Hip Priest]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

hip priest i know you're a very nice person (at least here on the interwebs) so kindly explain me this one:

“No one approaches the Father but through me.” (John 14:6)

oh yeah. it's there...

Fair point. That is there because Jesus is the mediator for all humans - dying for everyone, not just the right sort of people. I imagine you can either get things straight with Jesus now, or at a later stage in your earthly life, or at some point afterwards.

Jesus and Paul can both be quoted:

Jesus: "Then Jesus told him, "I have come to judge the world. I have come to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." The Pharisees who were standing there heard him and asked, "Are you saying we are blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see."

And Paul: "Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life."

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life."

ok, not to be a smartass, but i find that statement quite fucking oppressive-- god the busybody! quit snooping!

about the rest of the stuff, i know there are arguments against reading that "I am the way, the truth, and the life" passage in such a narrow way-- but it's so easy to read it in many ways it becomes a free for all.

which brings us to the fact of scriptural interpretation-- there's so much and there's so many contradictions, anyone can find something to explain anything they do. the bible has been used to justify slavery, to kill homosexuals, to wage "holy" wars...

too much of a mess to sort through, in my opinion. i'm much happier with reasonable laws on a civil society. in spite of lawyers and their own twisted interpretations. sure, civil society isn't perfect, but it doesn't make claims on my secret life.

now, if you want to be a nice person, etc, you sure don't need the whole apparatus of a church. i understand that not everyone is that way though, and my parents for example get some sort of relief or reassurance or consolation or guidance or encouragement from their sunday church. so as long as people keep their religion to themselves, i'm not opposed to it. but when they try to stop gays from marrying (see: california prop 8) and promote other various atrocities (child abuse via the teaching of creationism in science class), i have to weight if they do more evil than good...

[Hip Priest]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ok, not to be a smartass, but i find that statement quite fucking oppressive-- god the busybody! quit snooping!

Are you telling God to quit snooping? Are you accepting that He can hear you? That makes me feel very happy.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

about the rest of the stuff, i know there are arguments against reading that "I am the way, the truth, and the life" passage in such a narrow way-- but it's so easy to read it in many ways it becomes a free for all.

That's precisely why everything should be related back to the words - and the spirit - of Jesus teachings. Otherwise you end up with things like Calvin's predestination. And we don't need theories like that.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

which brings us to the fact of scriptural interpretation-- there's so much and there's so many contradictions, anyone can find something to explain anything they do. the bible has been used to justify slavery, to kill homosexuals, to wage "holy" wars...

Yes it does, yes there are, yes they can. But it's not hard to spot if something is going against the teachings of Jesus. In fact, it's about as difficult as breathing.

The whole debate about contradictions and stuff is something I'm happy to discuss, but I won;t expand upon it right now.

All of the bad behaviour you rightly point out is nothing to do with being religious, it's to do with being human. Totally secular countries haven't been moral pillars either.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

too much of a mess to sort through, in my opinion. i'm much happier with reasonable laws on a civil society. in spite of lawyers and their own twisted interpretations. sure, civil society isn't perfect, but it doesn't make claims on my secret life.

now, if you want to be a nice person, etc, you sure don't need the whole apparatus of a church. i understand that not everyone is that way though, and my parents for example get some sort of relief or reassurance or consolation or guidance or encouragement from their sunday church. so as long as people keep their religion to themselves, i'm not opposed to it. but when they try to stop gays from marrying (see: california prop 8) and promote other various atrocities (child abuse via the teaching of creationism in science class), i have to weight if they do more evil than good...

The same goes for the atheists. I know atheists who are not bullies or bigots. And I know ones who are. They are every bit as repulsive as the aggressive Christians.

But I think we should avoid saying that talking about something is the same as forcing something upon you. Otherwise we should all shut up about everything. And the forum would be a tad dull.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

Fair point. That is there because Jesus is the mediator for all humans - dying for everyone, not just the right sort of people. I imagine you can either get things straight with Jesus now, or at a later stage in your earthly life, or at some point afterwards.

Jesus and Paul can both be quoted:

Jesus: "Then Jesus told him, "I have come to judge the world. I have come to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." The Pharisees who were standing there heard him and asked, "Are you saying we are blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see."

And Paul: "Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life."

Very well put. You are a hip priest.