[khchris(original)]

they've always tested on people. even aids drugs.

[porkmarras]

Exactly.Aids drugs are regularly tested on hiv people for vaccine trials and it's nothing new.Before they do that they necessarily have to test them on animals.As i have a few friends who are HIV and a constant source of information for progresses being made in the cure for aids, i'm dead sure of this so there is nothing to argue about there.

[wax]

im not angry at all.
i think you are missing my point.
half of my family have had cancer, and whilest there are no cures, i do believe that someday animal testing will contibute to a cure.
bearing that in mind, i dont see how somebody could call for an end to animal testing without a good alternative.

im really not angry.
animal testing has not been banned. if it were banned, i would be angry.

i dont see what better ways there are of doing things.
nobody else has spoken of the better ways of doing things.

animal testing is used extensively in developing drugs to treat breast cancer. my mother had breast cancer, now she is recovering.
if it wernet for those drugs then maybe she would not be recovering.
thats how simple it is for me, and my mother and the millions of other breast cancer sufferers and their families.
by all means, if you find a better way, then lets not test on animals.
but until then, we will have to agree to disagree.

[Norma J]

So really, Wax, you're just being selfish?

"Torture innocent creatures so my family and I can be safe"

[Tokolosh]

Norma. I can understand that you get emotional about the so-called mistreating of animals. Who doesn't. The thing is, it's unavoidable and nesessary sometimes. Everywhere you look, from animal testing with cosmetics to the meat, leather, cat/dogfood whatever industry. We use them for our own purposes. Always have and always will. I think wax is being realistic about this issue.
There's nothing selfish about it at all.

[khchris(original)]

Norma J, try to calm down and understand that even you will compromise your beliefs for what may benefit a loved one.

nobody here is saying, "yes, i support burning, abusing, and torturing of animals in testing".

i think what you're forgetting is that there are guidelines to animal testing to help ensure that animals are not purposely mistreated and they try to make the testing as humane as possible. nobody gets off on watching animals suffer, nobody. not researchers, nobody except people who lost their minds.

to be 100% against it would be a living contradictory as i guarantee you that you have household products in your home that have been tested on animals, you may also own clothing or products that have animal products(skin, fat, etc.), you also probably have cosmetics and or soaps that were also tested on animals, but also you most-likely have medicines, vitamins, supplements or even food that have been tested on animals.

so there really isn't any need to argue because nobody here is 100% on either side and whoever says they are, well they're not only lying to the public, but more importantly in denial and lying to themselves.

it was a very general question and there is a middle ground that most, if not all people here fall into.

[Norma J]

I'm completely calm. My opposing view is not an indication of aggression.

I am 100% against animal testing. That's not a lie. I have no need to lie. Nor is there any naivity involved.

And actually, you're right as in there could be some product that is tested on animals or has animal ingredients in my posession, but it's not through a lack of caring or ignorance. I'm also quite happy to be shown my faults, and I'll stop using the product etc. I don't wear leather or use animal products. I don't take medication that's not from a herbalist. I know many people who are like this. It is not impossible.

[khchris(original)]

Originally Posted by Norma J

I'm completely calm. My opposing view is not an indication of aggression.

I am 100% against animal testing. That's not a lie. I have no need to lie. Nor is there any naivity involved.

And actually, you're right as in there could be some product that is tested on animals or has animal ingredients in my posession, but it's not through a lack of caring or ignorance. I'm also quite happy to be shown my faults, and I'll stop using the product etc. I don't wear leather or use animal products. I don't take medication that's not from a herbalist. I know many people who are like this. It is not impossible.

well, then you do admit that your lifestyle does contradict your beliefs to a certain degree, right?


and i believe it is impossible in a realistic sense to live free of all products that do not have any kind of animal research whatsoever, unless you live in the woods, wear clothes you made out of hemp, and live on berries and rain water because fact of the matter is you do not know the full extent of every single product or material, it's original form, or if it has been tested on animals or not.

it can be as small as the ink that is used on the packaging of your "herbal medicine". unless you know for sure that ink is biodegradeable and has not been tested on animals, again, you can't be 100% true to your beliefs.

btw, i am thoroughly knowledgeable on sustainability design.

[ni'k]

i thought this said do you agree with animal collective? then i saw it wasnt and i was like aw for fucks sakes i cants be bothereds with this boring back and forth whining argument so i went outside and shot a bunch of cats

[khchris(original)]

Originally Posted by ni'k

i thought this said do you agree with animal collective? then i saw it wasnt and i was like aw for fucks sakes i cants be bothereds with this boring back and forth whining argument so i went outside and shot a bunch of cats

i thought you would've shot a "panda" instead.

[wax]

this is my last post on the subject because nik is right.
back and forth and nothing that is said makes much difference anyway.
we are all selfish.
yes, i am fully supportive of animal testing so me and my family can live longer. id hope more rules are brought in to make it more efficient though.
but i am totaly against testing for any other reason than medical ones, at least that i can think of right now.
i eat meat and i have no problem with that, i do however disagree with intensive farming. but im far too lazy to go kill a cow myself when i want to eat. its also completely inpractical.
of all the arguments here, nobody has suggested a decent alternative to animal testing.
if there was one, then im sure we would already be using it.

nobody likes it, but the more realistic of us realise that its just something that happens and needs to happen if we are gonna progress or help our species.
i hear that some people think there is a debate as to whether we really do need it to progress, but nobody has offered any kind of alternative so far. so you should try and see my point.
i really seriously agree with you all about how shit unnessecary animal suffering is.
but lets not be daft..

[khchris(original)]

it's great that Norma J has a firm voice though. i admire people who atleast have an inner voice that they're willing to fight for. we do need people with varying opinions because the more opinions are varied, the more all of us learn from eachother.

it's when nobody disagrees or questions anything and everyone has the same opinion when things get stagnant, like beliefs and difference of opinions.

that's one thing about most sy fans today that i see: too much conformity and not enough questioning or difference of opinions. i think that's probably because most people are scared to voice their opinions in fear of getting bullied by some people here who just refuse to let other people voice a difference of opinion in fear that they are purposely ridiculed and labeled things like "george bush lover", "christian republican" or worse "kkk".

it's sad when certain people here harrass and intimidate just so that their opinion is the only one heard and nobody else's difference of opinion is heard.

so i commend norma J and others who had difference of opinions.

people who are scared of people voicing a difference of opinion are probably scared that their opinion may not be the most popular or the consensus of the majority.

but honestly, the key to learning in debates is the difference of opinions and questioning everything regardless.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Norma J

If Hitler were alive, he'd agree with you.

sorry, sister, but hitler was a nature lover & had the most stringent environmental laws ever.

and don't compare me with hitler-- you're the one who would support the annihilation of humans if it saved a bunny rabbit.

[Savage Clone]

I like to just support a more general annihilation of humans.
Simpler, I think.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Savage Clone

I like to just support a more general annihilation of humans.
Simpler, I think.

 

[static-harmony]

Although I voted that I don't support animal testing, I do agree to a certain extent, that animal testing has helped humanity, it has helped families get a cure that hasn't been created.And so forth.

[porkmarras]

A general idea of silliness is required when discussing this subject.Like it needs more saying than what's been said already.

[next step]

I'm agree just if the animals are politicians!

[porkmarras]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-CFhGj2gXVc

[wax]

classsic with three ess's.
my favorite is the guy who marries himself.

i now pronounce you "husband"