[SYRFox]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

This particular mosque in rural france is symbolic of a larger issue

I won't bother arguing on the whole thing but I'd just like to point out Marseille is not rural France at all. Marseille = 800,000 residents. Just saying.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

teach me all your wisdom, but can you manage to fit it in all of the 20 or so words you ever contribute to any thread here?

ok dont post sweeping generalizations of things you have little or no understanding of.

why dont you go to the holocaust museum in LA? then comment if its 'disneyesque'.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

It's not really a question of you overstepping your boundaries - you have a valid point in that there's an increased resistance to certain high-profile Islamic activities.




I don't know the States, at all, but I'd imagine that's like comparing Alaska to Alabama. If it's not, then I apologise - just as you seem to assume Europe is a single, homogeneous territorial culture, I assume that USA is a massive and diffuse set of cultures, bound not even by geographical demarcation (the struggles of a NY Jew are doubtless completely different to a NY Shinto).

I agree with you completely, the issues in Europe are very much complex and diverse. I know very well that Europe is not a homogenous place, just as the US is not, BUT, just like racism against blacks seems to be a relatively universal problem across the diversity of US life, so to does it seem to me (from the past few years of news reports, forgive me for relying on the news, I don't live in Europe and aside from Glice, no body from Europe here ever bothers to contribute some intelligent reasoning on the subject, rather than emotional mud slinging) that across the diversity of Europe a common theme has been a resistance to mosque building and other vestiges of Islam.
I do not want to see an Islamitization of Europe, but I am just calling it as I see it, if the many different Europeans want to cool the fires with their muslim populations, perhaps they should mellow out just a bit, that is all I have been trying to say..

Originally Posted by Glice

Oh, and one more thing - Muslims might not have it great, but they've also got used to a lot of British culture. I would be astonished if the rejection of a planning proposal were takenas 'Islamophobia' given that it's a bastard to build anything in the UK. Locally, some Muslims took over a derelict church recently, and the area's seen quite an improvement in prosperity (with related shops springing up to service the community) as result.

big up.

Originally Posted by jon boy

why dont you go to the holocaust museum in LA? then comment if its 'disneyesque'.

been there, its actually quite biased and even borderline racist much like its sister institution the so-called museum of tolerance..

jon boy, I think I figured it out, you seem to always equate my statements about Europe or Europeans as meaning "you" when it does not necessarily. If you say "Americans" or "America" i do not automatically assume you are referring to me, because much like Europe, America is a diverse place, and there are a lot of different opinions, beliefs and reactions. I can accept a criticism of America or Americans without it having to be personalized, but maybe that is because I only see myself as a quasi-american. but I have good reason to, I am no longer a full US citizen and my entitlement to several Federal benefits such as student aid, food stamps, federal employment other such things have been permanently revoked unless I decide to have a formal hearing with the Department of Selective Services in regards to my decade long anti-war stance...

You did understand that when I said "Europe" I didn't directly imply Jon-Boy right? and there are in fact many Europeans who are in fact intolerant against muslims, regardless if you are or not..

[Glice]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I agree with you completely, the issues in Europe are very much complex and diverse. I know very well that Europe is not a homogenous place, just as the US is not, BUT, just like racism against blacks seems to be a relatively universal problem across the diversity of US life, so to does it seem to me (from the past few years of news reports, forgive me for relying on the news, I don't live in Europe and aside from Glice, no body from Europe here ever bothers to contribute some intelligent reasoning on the subject, rather than emotional mud slinging) that across the diversity of Europe a common theme has been a resistance to mosque building and other vestiges of Islam.
I do not want to see an Islamitization of Europe, but I am just calling it as I see it, if the many different Europeans want to cool the fires with their muslim populations, perhaps they should mellow out just a bit, that is all I have been trying to say..

Fair enough. I have to say, from my perspective there's a much more visible Muslim population in Europe. This isn't a USA vs Europe statement - that doesn't help anyone - but outside of the problems facing the Rom population (I imagine Slavo could provide more info on that), there isn't anything comparable to huge numbers of people marching outside the White House on the basis that Barack Obama might be a Muslim. Which, as we know, is as far from the truth as possible.

I think in terms of representing the European approach to Islam, somewhere like Turkey is a really interesting place - somewhere with a Muslim majority which fights en masse for a secular government against Islamic pressure. Certainly, there are problems facing the Muslim populations in various pockets of Europe (again, somewhere like Bradford in the UK is a good example) but I can only see that as more to do with the machinations of poverty than it is to do with a specific 'beef' with Islam. Also in the UK we've seen a downsurge in support for (very very) minority parties like the BNP in areas where they've tried to galvanise (foment) 'support' for their anti-immigration policies.

Also, this (tangentially).

[Glice]

Jon Boy's in the quite unique position of having spent quite a bit of time in the UK, US and Canada, I'd just like to point out.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

I think in terms of representing the European approach to Islam, somewhere like Turkey is a really interesting place - somewhere with a Muslim majority which fights en masse for a secular government against Islamic pressure. Certainly, there are problems facing the Muslim populations in various pockets of Europe (again, somewhere like Bradford in the UK is a good example) but I can only see that as more to do with the machinations of poverty than it is to do with a specific 'beef' with Islam. Also in the UK we've seen a downsurge in support for (very very) minority parties like the BNP in areas where they've tried to galvanise (foment) 'support' for their anti-immigration policies.

Also, this (tangentially).

100% agreed. I would prefer to tackle the real underlying issues of economic and political disenfranchisement that European muslims sometimes face, but the surface bubble is bursting over mosques and burqas and such things, and while the real beef is over money and power, this socio-religious drama adds more fuel to the ever-growing fire. As Rob so poignently points out, religion can be quite a divisive and dangerous thing in the wrong hands and for the wrong reasons, and as I added to his point, makes a wonder disguise for legitimizing and mainstreaming political and economic issues in the name of religion (ie, the protestant movement against catholics or the Crusades or the Reconquista etc etc)

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

Jon Boy's in the quite unique position of having spent quite a bit of time in the UK, US and Canada, I'd just like to point out.

I usually quite like jon boy but he has been a pain in my ass here ever since he didn't like my anti-auschwitsz thread..

I wish he would get over it already, it is bad baggage when we used to get along very well, now he just attacks all my posts with nonsense and no substance. at least you like to have a true reasoning whether you agree or not. With this thread I wanted to have an honest discussion, and also I wanted to learn from Europeans how they felt and get some real information, but all he did was diss me and failed to contribute anything of substance, which was no help to me at all

Originally Posted by SYRFox

I won't bother arguing on the whole thing but I'd just like to point out Marseille is not rural France at all. Marseille = 800,000 residents. Just saying.

I thought that by the way, but the newsreport I saw portrayed it as a rural community and showed some suburban, semi-rural scenery so I was a bit confused. Thanks for the clear up! If anything, that proves my point so much more!

[Glice]

Well, I tend to think that if you want to take up a repressed European culture, the Bosniaks or the Rom are a better place to start than just Muslims. The only place I know of where traveller community (and not even necessarily Rom) aren't oppressed (per se) are some areas of Spain, and even then I don't know for sure.

[Rob Instigator]

are travellers=gypsies?

[Glice]

Some travellers are Gypsies. Some travellers are not. There's quite a few different groups of travellers, all widely derided for blanket reasons.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

Some travellers are Gypsies. Some travellers are not. There's quite a few different groups of travellers, all widely derided for blanket reasons.

in America we just call Europe's tradition of 'travelers' poor folks (well, some Americans have taken to the euphemisms of 'spics and niggers and towl heads' )

[Keeping It Simple]

Originally Posted by Glice

Jon Boy's in the quite unique position of having spent quite a bit of time in the UK, US and Canada, I'd just like to point out.

So what?

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Keeping It Simple

So what?

Sweetheart. C'mon. Why the antagonism? You know we been vibing lately. You wanna link up sometime? I'll bet you're a minx in the sack, aren't you dollface?

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

Sweetheart. C'mon. Why the antagonism? You know we been vibing lately. You wanna link up sometime? I'll bet you're a minx in the sack, aren't you dollface?

 

y'all should be careful, if you think Rastafari were homophobic you ain't seen the half that never been told

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I usually quite like jon boy but he has been a pain in my ass here ever since he didn't like my anti-auschwitsz thread..

I wish he would get over it already, it is bad baggage when we used to get along very well, now he just attacks all my posts with nonsense and no substance. at least you like to have a true reasoning whether you agree or not. With this thread I wanted to have an honest discussion, and also I wanted to learn from Europeans how they felt and get some real information, but all he did was diss me and failed to contribute anything of substance, which was no help to me at all


I thought that by the way, but the newsreport I saw portrayed it as a rural community and showed some suburban, semi-rural scenery so I was a bit confused. Thanks for the clear up! If anything, that proves my point so much more!

generally your posts dont have substance. thats why i call you out on them.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by Keeping It Simple

So what?

and round your mums house, tell her she still owes me a tenner.

[ploesj]

Originally Posted by gualbert

The issue is not about building mosques.
It's about minarets, which are 30m towers, where some dude sings very loud so that everyone knows it's time to go to the mosque and praise Allah.
These things are not welcome in atheist/christian Europe.

i live next to a cathedral. it rings bells every fifteen minutes. after two days you just don't notie it anymore.

there are a lot of mosques in my city, but they are not built like the ones in islamic countries, they are housed in regular buildings on regular streets. no minarets.

some time ago there were some cries from an extreme right party about the plan to assign churches that were out of use (meaning rather modern chruches with no significant historic value) to muslim communities who could turn them into mosques. these politicians started sprading poorly photoshopped pictures of the antwerp cathedral (a famous monument) with a pinaret on it. ridiculous of course, these plans were for churches built in the seventies, churches that weren't used at all anymore since church visits have dropped so much over the years. if people go to church, they will go to a nice old one.

[gualbert]

I've read some catholic church are being sold in Europe (some old ones too), and turned into nightclubs or housing..

In the meantime, such scenes takes place in Paris, quite frequently it seems:

 

[ploesj]

Originally Posted by gualbert

I've read some catholic church are being sold in Europe (some old ones too), and turned into nightclubs or housing..

indeed, and it surprises me that there isn't a lot more protest about that, since those churches are usually the older ones (often a gothic church)

but yeah, turning it into a nightclub isn't as bad as making it into a house of another god..

i have a few muslim friends, and they are absolutely nothing to be afraid of. they are young people who go to school, have parties, have friends like any other kid in belgium, except they follow some different rules. one of them is in a relationship with a girl who drinks and smokes, and he doesn't make a poitn out of it.

[ploesj]

oh and suchfriends: europe isn't as racist or close-minded as you seem to think. you probably only get the radical voices in your media, just like we usually only get the reports on the radical patriotic americans. if you would actually live here you would see that a large majority of people here has no problems with other religions, as long as they don't overrule our own cultures and traditions. there is this small group called sharia4belgium (the little brother of the now illegal uk variety) who want the whole country to live by the rules of islam. i would not be fine with that since i don't w