[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by pbradley

And the answer is to obfuscate this ethical twinge with an unconvincing egotism?

what egotism? obfuscate what exactly?

Originally Posted by pbradley

To answer your questions, I have an ipod that I haven't used in about two years. I do not have an iphone. I haven't purchased music in months. I can only assume some shit of mine has been made in sweatshops. None of this is an implicit endorsement of the conditions that produce them.

come on, you're smarter than that-- we're all accomplices and you know it. at least those of us doing the buying. yes, you haven't had a job, you haven't had money, but when you did, you were.

Originally Posted by pbradley

Your message isn't to consume less, it's to quit whining and keep your head down. Shit, you're more down this rabbit hole of anti-consumerist self-contempt that I can imagine. I remember reading it in between your "The Secret" go-get-em amoralism that you coached when the crash was just starting to hurt and some here couldn't find work.

sorry, secret what? i coached who? can you explain?

my message is what? keep your head down? fuck that shit. you've misread something.

about "some here couldn't find work": i lost work during the crash, you know? the majority of my clients (non-profits) shrank back or went under. we moved from a 3 bedroom house to a summer house-sitting gig to a 1 bedroom apartment. we adapted, hustled like motherfuckers, and survived. you didn't hear me crying here about anything and i'm doing well, thanks.

and i've paid my dues for having studied humanities, thank you. i've been a dishwasher, construction worker, waiter, pizza maker, underpaid teaching assistant, office temp, the list goes on forever. i know capitalism can be shit, i know what it's having no money, or how crap is the minimum wage, and i know what it means to live on rice and beans (literally, not metaphorically) --- i've never had much of what's called a "disposable income", hence i don't have any "collections" of anything except for used books i used to buy for 50 cents each.

meanwhile you're living at your parents free from homelessness, hunger and disease, and your only pain is that you can't go to a bar or buy a new ipod or any new music and nobody will pay you to be a philosopher.

i think you're a fucking pussy for feeling the need to take out your frustrations on me, but if you need the catharsis, by all means, go ahead if it will help you regain your balance.

now go stand outside of the home depot and make some money like the mexicans do, you fucking spoiled brat.

Originally Posted by pbradley

Capitalism is shit, I'm pessimistic that socialism is capable of providing anything superior. This isn't sanctimonious leftist dogma, its a spiritual catch-22.

So you're paralyzed by lofty ideas while suffering neither hunger nor homelessness-- that's quite convenient. I wanna suffer like that too! With free cable. Grow some balls and go do something instead of moaning here. I mean anything. If you wanna be a revolutionary, then start your revolution instead of posting useless internet jeremiads. I mean seriously. Go be the Che Guevara of Orange County. Go write the 21 century answer to Plato's "Republic". Or go find a job.

I've never said "do nothing" or "give up and submit"-- I do live in reality and I have to deal with what's in front of me rather than the World of Ideas-- and in spite of my shitty income and various obstacles I've been doing volunteer work to pass universal health care legislation-- quite frustrating at the moment, but we'll see how that goes-- nowhere here have I said "put your head down and quit whining", and if you're reading that into my posts maybe you're working out some issues of your own. I mean the "quit whining" part yes, but "put your head down"? Ranting on the internet about the evils of capitalism is not "raising your head high" by the way-- it's just suburban spoiled bullshit. Like I said, if you hate capitalism, go and destroy it-- actively.

If you don't have the balls to be a revolutionary, the census bureau is hiring, by the way:
http://2010.census.gov/2010censusjobs/

--

and i gotta get back to work. read you later-- tomorrow, maybe.

[!@#$%!]

ps- demonrail, chicka-- out of time to reply but i'll try later.

[floatingslowly]

Bradders is too white to be Che.

now, go make me a pizza, woman!

[Genteel Death]

I admire those who can read an entire long post by pbradley or knox without falling asleep halfway through.

[pbradley]

Not a criticism of your post, sarram, which I understand and agree but I hate how Adam Smith is cornered into a philosopher of economics and little else. In my opinion, his best book isn't *The Wealth of Nations* but *The Theory of Moral Sentiment*. It's even more aggravating when libertarians use *Moral Sentiments,* which you can guarantee they're even more likely ever to read than *Wealth,* in order to justify contemporary capitalism as generous and empathetic.

[the ikara cult]

I havent read this thread, and i will, but this is a primer for any of you who are worried that liberalminded people are accomodating far-right parties in an attempt to push their point.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whats-Left-L.../dp/0007229690

Even if you disagree, it has some key points on Chomsky, and other less respectable characters who dont use their position to help the left in oppressive societies (many of which would be SY fans im sure)

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

I havent read this thread, and i will, but this is a primer for any of you who are worried that liberalminded people are accomodating far-right parties in an attempt to push their point.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Whats-Left-L.../dp/0007229690

Even if you disagree, it has some key points on Chomsky, and other less respectable characters who dont use their position to help the left in oppressive societies (many of which would be SY fans im sure)

Sounds like he supported the Iraq war. Am I correct in thinking that?

[infinitemusic]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

That's all perfectly true but then those who blindly attack capitalism as some all-evil political monster don't see it as a progression out of those earlier (with the exception of apparatchiks) modes. Marx, as you know, was a massive believer in the merits of Capitaliism, he just didn't see it as the historical end point that many of those on the Right seem to (Fukuyama's whole 'End of History' thing, for example). Whether Marx was right in suggesting that a full working through of capitalism was crucial to providing the conditions necessary to support a progression into socialism is, of course, massively debatable, and has indeed been debated not just within centrist politics or the Right but even factions within the Left itself.

The problem with things like the anti-capitalist movement seems to be that it has no real vision of anything that might replace capitalism beyond some half-digested anarchism or, more usually, some sort of 'friendlier' capitalism. It's as though the movement itself can't really envisage an end of capitalism so has had to reconcile itself merely with trying to restrain it - 'ye olde Keynesian liberalism', as PBradley mentions already.)

That's an interesting point. But why exactly should we want to destroy capitalism in favor of something else, rather than creating a "friendlier" version (which in my opinion would be highly regulated and have strong sanctions against lobbying the government in any way)? I consider myself a realist, and capitalism isn't going away anytime soon. The best we can do is make it in people's and companies' interests to have a conscience. And we all know that the only way to do that is with regulation, sanctions and all the other things. I think we have all the tools necessary.

And if someone does come up with a much better idea, then we should use it. But things don't change overnight and there actually ARE benefits to capitalism for a majority of people, which is something anti-capitalist people generally like to pretend isn't true.

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by Lurker

Sounds like he supported the Iraq war. Am I correct in thinking that?

Yes

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

what egotism?

This:

not because i'm a hippie, but because owning too much crap is uncomfortable.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

obfuscate what exactly?

The fact that you regret the inequalities your consumerism produces.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

sorry, secret what? i coached who? can you explain?

Yes, if I remember correctly, phoenix or someone was talking about how difficult things were and you gave the old "go to the mattresses" advice. I'm not saying it wasn't valuable or warranted, just that I sensed your own opposition to the system.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

my message is what? keep your head down? fuck that shit. you've misread something.

Perhaps I have. I'm already aware that complaining on the internet is inconsequential which is why I assumed that you were criticizing more than complaining on the internet.

But if I've misread you, you've equally misread me. I'm didn't mean to assault your credibility to speak upon the subject, nor insinuate that I've suffered proportionately more than you. In fact, I was only meaning to establish that you, too, know exactly what I've been talking about, this catch-22. But I must ask, where have you seen me complain about my situation? The only time I've mentioned my unemployment in this thread was in reply to Glice. The only other time I can remember mentioning my financial situation was an argument with sway but that was over the public healthcare option. Never have I made a thread complaining about my situation, nor even so much as a long post. All I've said is that capitalism sucks, a sentiment you seem to agree with. It seems like half of your reply is attacking the message board with me as exemplar, really. To be honest, I've only posted in the 'what have you bought' thread maybe about once.

I'm starting to suspect that you didn't really take my joke about slave mentality as a joke.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

So you're paralyzed by lofty ideas while suffering neither hunger nor homelessness-- that's quite convenient. I wanna suffer like that too!

I think you already do.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

I've never said "do nothing" or "give up and submit"

Good, then that largely settles my dispute.


And because you care so much about how I am doing, I'm volunteering (being paid under the table) a part-time job as an teaching assistant for a Los Angeles after school GED course. It isn't much but I can pay for gas. Applied to the census about a couple months ago, too.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Yes

Sounds like something I might find interesting then.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by infinitemusic

That's an interesting point. But why exactly should we want to destroy capitalism in favor of something else, rather than creating a "friendlier" version (which in my opinion would be highly regulated and have strong sanctions against lobbying the government in any way)? I consider myself a realist, and capitalism isn't going away anytime soon. The best we can do is make it in people's and companies' interests to have a conscience. And we all know that the only way to do that is with regulation, sanctions and all the other things. I think we have all the tools necessary.

And if someone does come up with a much better idea, then we should use it. But things don't change overnight and there actually ARE benefits to capitalism for a majority of people, which is something anti-capitalist people generally like to pretend isn't true.

"Beware..If you keep on biting and consuming each other, watch out lest you be consumed by each other."

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by Lurker

Sounds like something I might find interesting then.

Well, its interesting even if you dont think the war in 2003 was the right decision. It isnt a deconstruction of the arguements for or against that policy, its more about whether you can call yourself a proper liberal person if you dont explicitly and actively support liberal people in oppressive regimes.

It wont have much resonance unless youre British but if you are its well worth picking up.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Well, its interesting even if you dont think the war in 2003 was the right decision. It isnt a deconstruction of the arguements for or against that policy, its more about whether you can call yourself a proper liberal person if you dont explicitly and actively support liberal people in oppressive regimes.

It wont have much resonance unless youre British but if you are its well worth picking up.

I read that book too. Really interesting, especially the stuff on Bosnia. I definitely have a fair bit of sympathy with his overall point that the Left appears to have lost its moral compass in recent years. Christopher Hitchens has written a similarly themed book, the title of which escapes me but which is also good and focuses a bit more on American liberals than Cohn's does. Also, although largely dealing with the situation in France, Bernard-Henri Levy's recent book, The Left in Dark Times, makes similar points to those made by Cohn and is also excellent. There seems to be a real rift developing within what I suppose we have to call the Left intelligentsia in response to its overwhelming opposition to the war in Iraq. It's a fascinating debate I think.

[knox]

im in love with !@#$%!, ideologically.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by knox

would you like to go back if you could?

don't be daft.

[knox]

if you're going to be witty you gotta keep it up, its hard work.

but anyway, im still waiting to know what would be a better system.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by knox

but anyway, im still waiting to know what would be a better system.

magical socialism

[knox]

yes, i guess its better than trying to do something about things.

[Toilet & Bowels]

It's like Marquez crossed with Marx