[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

As for the Manson bullshit:

- He was a sociopath. As far as everyone knows, he was a racist, preached violence and planned those crimes. Sociopaths don't even need drugs - they are naturally able to be leaders, specially over vulnerable people.

Many sociopaths are CREATED, as Manson was.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

- The responsability of security should ideally belong to the state, citizens should be demanding that rather than feeling like they can do justice and protect themselves - they can't.

.

fuck THAT SHIT. fuck a whole lot of THAT SHIT

the state is responsible solely for securing the state from OUTSIDE threats, not internal crime, and not on keeping individuals safe from other individuals. The state that focuses on internal affairs, like the usa is currently, is on a slippery slope to totalitarianism, cuz, you know, it's for everyones best interests! they must be safe! Take the guns! put cameras on every corner! film everyone! no privacy! Those tactics worked for Nazi germany (they used tattletales and snitches instead of cameras) and it is working just fine in the UK right? cuz you guys have no crime right?

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Many sociopaths are CREATED, as Manson was.

I'm with science on this one. People are born sociopaths.
Things that happen to them might influence how dangerous they will eventually become, but sociopaths are individuals with low or no activity in the frontal area of the brain, namely, uncapable of what we call love/empathy/mercy. On average, 1 between 30 people.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

guns are for killing.

so is bug spray.

so is a mousetrap

so are knives, swords, etc.

so is poison

all these things are widely available because it is not what an item is FOR but how and why it is used that makes it a horrible thing.

oh dear oh dear.

the role of guns, specifically hand guns is to shoot people. by your argument everything could be banned because of possible miss use.

the idea that other people are carrying guns so everyone has to defend themselves is so silly and so ingrained in the american psyche. instead of watching mindless tv, listening to mindless music and posting on internet forums why dont you write to your local politician and ask them for more gun control.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

fuck THAT SHIT. fuck a whole lot of THAT SHIT

the state is responsible solely for securing the state from OUTSIDE threats, not internal crime, and not on keeping individuals safe from other individuals. The state that focuses on internal affairs, like the usa is currently, is on a slippery slope to totalitarianism, cuz, you know, it's for everyones best interests! they must be safe! Take the guns! put cameras on every corner! film everyone! no privacy! Those tactics worked for Nazi germany (they used tattletales and snitches instead of cameras) and it is working just fine in the UK right? cuz you guys have no crime right?

then why do you have the police?

[FreshChops]

Originally Posted by knox

Facts:
- The responsability of security should ideally belong to the state, citizens should be demanding that rather than feeling like they can do justice and protect themselves - they can't.

Citizens can't protect themselves with guns??? You live in a small and sheltered world. You obviously have skimmed right past my references of citizens protecting themselves? As far as "citizens demanding security from their state"... that's fucking hilarious! how's that working out for you? Say no more, you obviously live in a fairy tale land that I've yet to experience. God forbid you wake up in the middle of the night and hear people rummaging around in your house.... how will the state swoop in and inject justice into that situation?

your list of facts is just a heavy dose of narrow-minded favoritism. You've crafted an unjust best-case / worst-case scenario in favor of your opinion.... most of which is just speculation and assumption, nothing resembling "fact".

Let's just say hypothetically speaking because I assume you have little to no experience with what you're talking about: say you have a good friends as neighbors. You've known for years, BBQ together, get together play Pictiionary, read bible stories... the works. One day "guns" come up and they mention, oh yeah, we've got pistol we keep in the nightstand.. and so on. Would that change the way you think about them? Would you suddenly fear for them or be afraid of them? Would you assume they are contributing to crime? ......and so on?

[knox]

I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the world.

And once again, I'm talking numbers.

America and Gun Violence

• Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
• The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
• American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

I can't look right now, but I can't be repeating myself either: if you read stats you'll see carrying a gun make your chances of dying in the event of a crime much greater.

I realise you'll think those numbers aren't significant and/or right, but I really can't be looking for data right now. Some of my friends disagree with me, we often debate the subject like adults.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

Citizens can't protect themselves with guns??? You live in a small and sheltered world. You obviously have skimmed right past my references of citizens protecting themselves? As far as "citizens demanding security from their state"... that's fucking hilarious! how's that working out for you? Say no more, you obviously live in a fairy tale land that I've yet to experience. God forbid you wake up in the middle of the night and hear people rummaging around in your house.... how will the state swoop in and inject justice into that situation?

your list of facts is just a heavy dose of narrow-minded favoritism. You've crafted an unjust best-case / worst-case scenario in favor of your opinion.... most of which is just speculation and assumption, nothing resembling "fact".

Let's just say hypothetically speaking because I assume you have little to no experience with what you're talking about: say you have a good friends as neighbors. You've known for years, BBQ together, get together play Pictiionary, read bible stories... the works. One day "guns" come up and they mention, oh yeah, we've got pistol we keep in the nightstand.. and so on. Would that change the way you think about them? Would you suddenly fear for them or be afraid of them? Would you assume they are contributing to crime? ......and so on?

i think knox knows more about this subject than you.

[FreshChops]

so, there's "numbers" for everything:

you can state numbers on deaths from food poisoning or adverse reactions to prescriptions, etc....

the coalition to stop gun violence needs to focus on a lot more than removing guns.... responsible parenting, where's that fall into the equation? Don't you think if they started charging parents with their kids gun crimes, parents would leave their own foggy minded worlds long enough to intervene with the kids activities and responsibilities.

So 80 people die from gun violence? Sounds scary but lets look at the big picture... how many people are dying every minute from medical malpractice (something that can be avoided)? Of these gun death figures, can the be assured that if there are no guns these murders or deaths aren't going to occur either way.

and all in all, aside from bitching, what is your solution.... they round up every legally owned gun in the country?

[FreshChops]

Originally Posted by jon boy

i think knox knows more about this subject than you.

good,

we're talking about the poster demanding protection from their state right?

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

I think you name five things there and call it HEAVY regulation. I don't know, I tend to think americans think it's not the goverment's obligation to enforce security, and it's not their right to demand it. But I said a million times (and i goes ignored) cases in which people manage to protect themselves with guns aren't the majority - most of the time people increase their chances of getting hurt. Those aren't lunacies from pacifists, those are statistics.

About Charles Manson, yeah rough childhood. Lots of people have it, but not all people are sociopaths. What about that whole thing about starting war against "the blacks"?

Tex Watson had went MIA for a bit. The ranch receives a phone call from Watson's girlfriend's house. She is kept there at gunpoint by a black guy who is demanding some money Tex gave him for some pot he was supposed to get, but never delivered. Guy stated that if he didn't get his money soon, he was going to kill the girl. Manson and one other family member went to the house, long story short, Manson shot, and THOUGHT he killed this individual that he assumed for different reasons was a member of the black panther party. After said event, Manson felt strongly that there would be an attack on the ranch by other black panthers...a "war". Not the widescale bullshit Vincent Bugliosi would have everyone believe. I'm sorry...Manson's (and others....) account of this event sounds much more logical.

The guy ended up not being dead. Bugliosi found him, and stressed interest in having the bullet removed from his body so he could see if it matched up with a pistol the family had been using. He wouldn't allow them to remove the bullet, because he said it made for a "good story".

And despite that...it was the 60's, lots of people felt as if there might be a war between the whites and the blacks.

Do yr homework, please.

And yes, lots of kids go through shit. Not many are given up by their moms, placed into juvenile delinquent homes, sodomized by other boys as gaurds watch (as well as having chewed tobacco stuffed up their asses as lube), all kinds of other shit Rob already stated, all WELL documented. Anyone would be fucked up....but, he did do well for himself for a while...he's never tried to make himself off as being some sort of saint, no one is. Dude just has a message, some of which is worth listening to.

Def. more entertaining and well thought out than this dream-world-human-nature-defying bullshit you've been preachin'. Sorry...yr cool, but still...it's bullshit.

[ann ashtray]

+ I love how Jon Boy suffers seriously from expressing anything beyond "epic fail", "they know more than you", etc.

Shit's weird. Sorry Jon Boy.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

good,

we're talking about the poster demanding protection from their state right?

well i am talking about gun ownership and i think thats what you are trying to do but its hard to make out in your ill thought out posts.

having seen first hand the damage guns can do i think i can speak with a degree of experience and say that guns, especially handguns should be banned.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by ann ashtray

+ I love how Jon Boy suffers seriously from expressing anything beyond "epic fail", "they know more than you", etc.

Shit's weird. Sorry Jon Boy.

well i did explain more, read back.

epic fail.

[FreshChops]

after hurricane katrina, we were all without utilities, contact or anything for about a month where I'm at. After a little while cops would randomly ride through the neighborhood to scope things out. One stopped with window rolled down and said "do y'all have any guns?" Not knowing where he was going with it, I hesitantly answered yeah and showed him a shotgun I had in my doorway. He just smiled, nodded and said "Good!" and drove away.

there's you're protection from the state

[knox]

what I like about jon boy is that he's so british he doesn't even bother.

[ann ashtray]

Originally Posted by knox

what I like about jon boy is that he's so british he doesn't even bother.

But he tries, and so do you....clearly more than anyone else in this thread.

Whats that say?

[FreshChops]

Originally Posted by jon boy

having seen first hand the damage guns can do i think i can speak with a degree of experience and say that guns, especially handguns should be banned.

don't be hesitant to be vague now

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by knox

what I like about jon boy is that he's so british he doesn't even bother.

well indeed.

when i was younger, 12 i found that my dad had a gun which i and a freind worked out how to gain access too. it was quite old and me and my friend found great enjoyment in shooting cans, bits of wood etc. i didnt know that my friend had re loaded the gun and when another friend came over to look at what we where doing i shot him accidentally. he didnt die and was ok after a while but it just goes to show the fact that owning a gun can lead to serious consequences. something to think about.

you could argue that it should not have been so easy to access but kids have an uncanny ability to find their way into anything so it makes me shudder to think there are people with whole arsenals at their disposal and virtually no control from state or parent. more terrible accidents waiting to happen.

[knox]

Originally Posted by FreshChops

so, there's "numbers" for everything:

you can state numbers on deaths from food poisoning or adverse reactions to prescriptions, etc....

the coalition to stop gun violence needs to focus on a lot more than removing guns.... responsible parenting, where's that fall into the equation? Don't you think if they started charging parents with their kids gun crimes, parents would leave their own foggy minded worlds long enough to intervene with the kids activities and responsibilities.

So 80 people die from gun violence? Sounds scary but lets look at the big picture... how many people are dying every minute from medical malpractice (something that can be avoided)? Of these gun death figures, can the be assured that if there are no guns these murders or deaths aren't going to occur either way.

and all in all, aside from bitching, what is your solution.... they round up every legally owned gun in the country?

My points you have been ignoring:

- The stats that are relevant to this discussion are the ones that point out how people have MORE chances of getting hurt than they do of defending themselves when they have a gun.

- How the gun industry is the same one that makes the guns criminals use.

- How you pay taxes for things like the police, but then you say the government doesn't have to protect citizens.

- On suicide: you will say people who want to commit suicide can do that in many ways, true. The same goes for murder. But when someone has a powerful weapon that can do much damage in less than a second, there's no time to think or to defend yourself: it's done, and it happens more often than it does when people don't have guns and the consequences are worse. That goes for suicide, passionate crimes, anger etc.

- I don't have stats on this, but I'm quite sure most people killed with guns are not expecting it, so it wouldn't matter if they had one or not.