[kingcoffee]

Jesus Christ, primative people believed in gods and spirits and demons because they were too fucking stupid to understand the universe. They thought people got sick because the gods were angry or that demons had entered their bodies. They beleived witches were able to cast spells on them. They beleived that a bad harvest or a bad season meant that the gods were punishing them. Lips, yer logic is awfully flawed. If there was no god that doesn't mean that primative humans wouldn't be unable to imagine a higher power. Yer logic is awful in this regard. We are able to imagine things that don't exist because we have evolved the brain capaicty to do so. It's nature; evolution. We have very powerful brains not because God gave us them, but because we evolved them through the process of natural selection because we needed the abilty to think on a higher level than other animals to survive.

[kingcoffee]

You beleive in God and religion for all the wrong reasons. You hold faith in a higher power power not because you have searched all possibilities and came to what you believe is a rational explanation for the universe. You just think that it has to be so because it's too beautiful for God to be nonexistant and that primative man brains couldn't think up an unseeable, all powerful being on their own? Awful, awful rdiculously irrational line of thinking. If that's yr reason for believing in God, I pity you.

Think about it: If humans had primative brains in a reality WITH God, how would they then interpret God's existance anyhow? Their primative brains, as you claim, wouldn't be able to process that kind of thing. Yr logic is contradictory to yr own logic.

[Cantankerous]

boring. tie me off.

[kingcoffee]

Shoot up.

[Cantankerous]

god, what the fuck took you so long?

[Lipslikewindows]

What is it with people not being able to pay attention? Again, I never said that's my reason for belief in God. I said it's one of them. And it's at pretty much the bottom of the list.

Again, since you're all about being able to prove something on your terms, what possible proof could you have that evolution (which I believe occurred, dude) would allow us to imagine a loving God? What would be the point of that?

I could get further into it but I can see this isn't going anywhere.

[kingcoffee]

What are you talking about? What does evolution have to do with fantasizing about God? That makes no sense. Our highly evolved brains make it possible for us to IMAGINE a "loving God". That's all. Higher brain functions. That's it.

[Lipslikewindows]

What would be the evolutionary function of being able to fantasize about something that could never exist? And it's not something like a unicorn (a horse with a horn on it...combination of two things) but rather something completely foreign to the universe. For what reason would that kind of imagination be desirable enough, from a survival standpoint, to be part of the dominant human genetic makeup? Why human beings would imagine a God, or why their brains would be able to do so cannot be explained by evolution alone. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it's illogical. I think if the overwhelming majority of human beings, early human beings, all from different cultures which had, for the most part, never interacted, all believe in a creator or creators, there's some root of truth to it. That's all I'm saying. Am I saying it couldn't be perverted or confused until it turns into "no crops this year...rain god's mad at us" or "no crops this year...must sacrifice humans"? No. But I'm saying at the heart of it, there was truth. I don't think that human beings evolved to a certain point and where finally able to imagine a God starting about 6000 years ago. Or even 20,000 years ago. Did one person imagine it and somehow word of this fictional character spread across the earth to all these different cultures (even though these different cultures never interacted (such as Native Americans and Jews, or Native Americans and Romans))? Or did, somehow, all of these different cultures simultaneously start imagining God? Either one seems completely impossible to me. Maybe I have a lack of imagination, but I don't think so. I think it's illogical to think either of those two things happened.

You said "our highly evolved brains make it possible for us to imagine a 'loving god'"...why would they do so? What would be the point? And, to restate my second point again, how did all the cultures of the world basically start imagining God or gods at about the same time?

[atari 2600]

Originally Posted by kingcoffee

Jesus Christ, primative people believed in gods and spirits and demons because they were too fucking stupid to understand the universe.

or maybe they just were representing & interpreting their universe for their time?

Originally Posted by kingcoffee

They thought people got sick because the gods were angry or that demons had entered their bodies.

that actually shows some wisdom does it not?
We just have a better understanding today that allows us to describe things, as we perceive them, more rationally. Thank goodness we do have a lot more efficacious medicines nowadays. The rise of nation-states has produced some nice amenities in our "civilized" lives, but aren't we experiencing many of the pitfalls of civilization as well? Your statement presupposes that people in general are gloriously intelligent nowadays & that's simply not the case, especially when it comes to philosophy, art, love, or religion. Look to art history. That should tell you all you need to know really. At least look to 19th century european literature back when far more people were fabulously intelligent. The generations that came after the middle class first arose in nation-states & public education first became more widespread were really with it. It's from those people that free enterprise & decent standards of living arose, slavery first started to end & that women got the right to vote in Europe & the French also inspired our wonderful governmental model of checks & balances (that has now unfortunately fell by the wayside.)
Intelligence, like everything else, is relative.

Originally Posted by kingcoffee

They beleived that a bad harvest or a bad season meant that the gods were punishing them.

Well, natural law (God) is punishing to those that do not understand its intrinsic rhythms. We should always be seeking to know nature & thus ourselves. So, if what we perceive as "punishment" is actually just a reminder that we need correction & to perfect our wills further is "punishment" not, in that way, love?

As one may have inferred, I feel that kingcoffee's post comes off as a rant. It's as if he's just lumping all these (ridiculously elitist) generalizations together.

[alyasa]

Actually, without religion, most of modern civilization would not have occured. We would still be fucking each other's wives and killing each other's children for food. Oh, wait. We still do.

[sonikjuice]

Not everything our brains can do necessarily has an evolutionary function. What is the evolutionary function of imagining time travel? Our brains are highly evolved so we can out-think stronger species. Imagining God could simply be a by-product of our complex thinking ability.

Or perhaps imagining a god is a way for people to give meaning to what could otherwise be perceived as a meaningless existence. If our brains thought that life was meaningless, we might not have a drive to survive. That could definitely be the evolutionary function that you are seeking. However, it doesn't mean that an actual god exits.

Originally Posted by Lipslikewindows

What would be the evolutionary function of being able to fantasize about something that could never exist? And it's not something like a unicorn (a horse with a horn on it...combination of two things) but rather something completely foreign to the universe. For what reason would that kind of imagination be desirable enough, from a survival standpoint, to be part of the dominant human genetic makeup? Why human beings would imagine a God, or why their brains would be able to do so cannot be explained by evolution alone. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it's illogical. I think if the overwhelming majority of human beings, early human beings, all from different cultures which had, for the most part, never interacted, all believe in a creator or creators, there's some root of truth to it. That's all I'm saying. Am I saying it couldn't be perverted or confused until it turns into "no crops this year...rain god's mad at us" or "no crops this year...must sacrifice humans"? No. But I'm saying at the heart of it, there was truth. I don't think that human beings evolved to a certain point and where finally able to imagine a God starting about 6000 years ago. Or even 20,000 years ago. Did one person imagine it and somehow word of this fictional character spread across the earth to all these different cultures (even though these different cultures never interacted (such as Native Americans and Jews, or Native Americans and Romans))? Or did, somehow, all of these different cultures simultaneously start imagining God? Either one seems completely impossible to me. Maybe I have a lack of imagination, but I don't think so. I think it's illogical to think either of those two things happened.

You said "our highly evolved brains make it possible for us to imagine a 'loving god'"...why would they do so? What would be the point? And, to restate my second point again, how did all the cultures of the world basically start imagining God or gods at about the same time?

[Lipslikewindows]

So if, like Freud said, we believe in God because we perceive the world as cold and meaningless (and also of course other issues involving our fathers), and we need to believe in God to have a drive to survive, that means, basically, that the world is INHERENTLY better if there is a God (if God existing would allow more people to survive via hope). Which would mean that a Godless universe facilitated fantasies of a universe better than itself. That seems illogical to me.

Originally Posted by sonikjuice

Not everything our brains can do necessarily has an evolutionary function. What is the evolutionary function of imagining time travel? Our brains are highly evolved so we can out-think stronger species. Imagining God could simply be a by-product of our complex thinking ability.

Or perhaps imagining a god is a way for people to give meaning to what could otherwise be perceived as a meaningless existence. If our brains thought that life was meaningless, we might not have a drive to survive. That could definitely be the evolutionary function that you are seeking. However, it doesn't mean that an actual god exits.

[alyasa]

Originally Posted by sonikjuice

Not everything our brains can do necessarily has an evolutionary function. What is the evolutionary function of imagining time travel? Our brains are highly evolved so we can out-think stronger species. Imagining God could simply be a by-product of our complex thinking ability.

Or perhaps imagining a god is a way for people to give meaning to what could otherwise be perceived as a meaningless existence. If our brains thought that life was meaningless, we might not have a drive to survive. That could definitely be the evolutionary function that you are seeking. However, it doesn't mean that an actual god exits.

Basically you're saying that religion is mass hallucination and fantasy on a global scale. So does that make God real then? I mean, tens of millions of people belive in George Bush, that must mean war is good, right? And conspicuous consumption has always been the answer, right?

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by alyasa

Basically you're saying that religion is mass hallucination and fantasy on a global scale. So does that make God real then? I mean, tens of millions of people belive in George Bush, that must mean war is good, right? And conspicuous consumption has always been the answer, right?

You sound confused. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[alyasa]

Perhaps I am. A lot of contradictions abound in arguments where logic is utilized to illustrate abstract notions. When you reach the point where religion is pulled into the fray, I tend to see a blurry distinction between fact and hopeful thinking. Whether this distinction is a purely opinionated viewpoint, or fact; has always been a point of contention for me, especially considering most people will tend to drive their points home without any consideration as to the facts, or value of the facts.

Regarding the post made by sonikjuice, it just sounds to me, as though a situation where people have to imagine a God into existence so as to make their existence bearable, is an intolerable and generally inconceivable situation, especially when you regard the fact that most of the population of developed countries, like America, Britain, Tokyo, et al, are within the middle to upper class wealth percentile. Add to this the fact that organized religion has, as its proponents, the majority of the human race, and I would say that someone or something has got everyone hallucinating the exact same thing at the exact same time. Wonderful achievement, I would say. I wonder who's doing it?

[Lipslikewindows]

"Regarding the post made by sonikjuice, it just sounds to me, as though a situation where people have to imagine a God into existence so as to make their existence bearable, is an intolerable and generally inconceivable situation"

Yep.

Again, why would the myth of God appear all over the world? At the same time (basically)? With no contact between most cultures?

[Lurker]

I'm an Athiest

[alyasa]

Originally Posted by Lurker

I'm an Athiest

You're in the minority then. How does it feel like to be Godless?

[sonikjuice]

If you didn't believe in god, would feel your life is meaningful? Why do people look to religion in the first place? I would argue that it is to find meaning in their lives.

I don't understand your argument concerning wealth. Are you saying that people with wealth already have meaningful lives and therefore don't need to believe in a god at all? By the way, not everyone believes in the "exact same thing at the exact same time." A lot of people don't believe in god or believe in multiple gods. In addition, why is it that people with some of the most developed/evolved brains (like Nietzsche, Freud, etc..) did not believe in god? Why would god allow our minds to question his existence? (On another note, Tokyo is not a country).

I personally don't know if a god exists or not. I tend to think there is a higher power out there. However, I do not buy the argument that god must exist because a lot of people have believed in a god for a long time. That is ridiculous to me.

Originally Posted by alyasa

Perhaps I am. A lot of contradictions abound in arguments where logic is utilized to illustrate abstract notions. When you reach the point where religion is pulled into the fray, I tend to see a blurry distinction between fact and hopeful thinking. Whether this distinction is a purely opinionated viewpoint, or fact; has always been a point of contention for me, especially considering most people will tend to drive their points home without any consideration as to the facts, or value of the facts.

Regarding the post made by sonikjuice, it just sounds to me, as though a situation where people have to imagine a God into existence so as to make their existence bearable, is an intolerable and generally inconceivable situation, especially when you regard the fact that most of the population of developed countries, like America, Britain, Tokyo, et al, are within the middle to upper class wealth percentile. Add to this the fact that organized religion has, as its proponents, the majority of the human race, and I would say that someone or something has got everyone hallucinating the exact same thing at the exact same time. Wonderful achievement, I would say. I wonder who's doing it?

[sonikjuice]

Actually I wasn't saying that, and you contradicted your own argument with that statement.

Originally Posted by alyasa

Basically you're saying that religion is mass hallucination and fantasy on a global scale. So does that make God real then? I mean, tens of millions of people belive in George Bush, that must mean war is good, right? And conspicuous consumption has always been the answer, right?