[pbradley]

Unfortunately, Christians being nice guys shouldn't be enough to adopt the faith.

[Hip Priest]

Originally Posted by SONIC GAIL

Very well put. You are a hip priest.

That's very kind of you. Many thanks.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

Are you telling God to quit snooping? Are you accepting that He can hear you?

ha ha no, of course not, but i think it's quite crazymaking to tell children that there is a god that can see and hear everything they do in their life and will judge them for it. the idea that one is being followed around by this unwelcome spy is sickening and terrifying --i did have that notion as a child, and it was utterly stifling. it's bad enough to make you want to embrace satanism (i didn't, but when you think about it... anything to shoo away that peeping tom)

when/if i spawn, i will make sure to spare the little beasties such terrorist notions.

i want to respond to the rest of your post but it's 1030 am and i haven't had breakfast yet, have to work out, do a bunch of work, etc, but i'll come back to the thread & check it out when i get a chance.

and good to have you back on the board. you've been gone for ages.

[PAULYBEE2656]

i am irish and roman catholic and whats going on in this country sickens me. for years kids have kept quiet about priests and bishops abusing children because no one would beileve them and now its all coming out and the roman catholic church heirarchy are running around with fingers in their ears going "la la la la la la im not listening la la la la" its horrendous.....
i do go to church for my childrens sake, i want them to make teir own mind up. i havent gone to church in many years out of my own choice but thats just me..

not all priests are bad believe me...... our local parish priest is an absolute gentleman.........

anyhoo, religion is low on my lifestyle prioprity list but again, thats just me and im not gonna berate anyone about their belief system....

[floatingslowly]

do not underestimate the Fear of God as a valid behavioral tool.

that said, my kid is still a heathen. he takes after his mother.

[Hip Priest]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

and good to have you back on the board. you've been gone for ages.

I was just about to go and cook tea, so I was about to say the same thing.

And thanks. It's always nice to see that people such as yourself are still here.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

Greed...bullying...bigotry...hate...they are traits that some Christians have, but they are not Christian traits. Someone said that Christians striving to be sinless hate sinners; well that means they hate themselves, because a Christian who believes themselves to be sinless denies the very most basic point of being a Christian.

The Bible does not teach that being a Christian is the only way to end up in Heaven; in fact the Bible openly states that non-Christians may very well get into Heaven just as readily as Christians. It is utterly wrong to tell someone - anyone - that they are going to Hell.

But that kind of thing stands in the way of bigotry and bullying, so it gets ignored.
.

You sir, are SAINT! Speaking about hell or judgment at ALL is bullshit that should not cross Christians mind to begin with, let alone be something they dare throw into the faces of their friends, loved ones and even perfect strangers!

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ok, not to be a smartass, but i find that statement quite fucking oppressive-- god the busybody! quit snooping!


which brings us to the fact of scriptural interpretation-- there's so much and there's so many contradictions, anyone can find something to explain anything they do.



now, if you want to be a nice person, etc, you sure don't need the whole apparatus of a church. i understand that not everyone is that way though, and my parents for example get some sort of relief or reassurance or consolation or guidance or encouragement from their sunday church. so as long as people keep their religion to themselves, i'm not opposed to it. but when they try to stop gays from marrying (see: california prop 8) and promote other various atrocities (child abuse via the teaching of creationism in science class), i have to weight if they do more evil than good...

agreed agreed agreed.. how is God somehow trapped in the Bible? I have never understood that, people somehow trap an Infinite God in this little box called the Bible, and whenever they want to consult God, they read the Bible? Wtf? Why not just ask the dude directly? If you want to find out something about me, you can either check my profile/bio, research all the things others have said about and get the gossip, or just simply hit me up first-hand and talk to me directly..

God is not the Bible

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

ha ha no, of course not, but i think it's quite crazymaking to tell children that there is a god that can see and hear everything they do in their life and will judge them for it. the idea that one is being followed around by this unwelcome spy is sickening and terrifying

I agree with that entirely, God should not be a judge we are all terrified of, God should be someone we want to be friends with, not terribly afraid. We make the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny friendly characters kids want to play with, but we make God seemingly the worst around

[knox]

Originally Posted by SONIC GAIL

For some one who is not a christian and does not believe in god you sure are interested in this thread.

If more little girls stayed "virgins" maybe they would'nt "need" abortions (which I am not opposed to in the proper circumstances)

Seems to me that you use your personal beliefs to fullfill your own agenda so how does that differ from religious groups?

You talk about equality in one post and the next speak of how the "Evangelists" should not be "allowed" to participate in the media.

You act like christian kids are the hitler youth or something.

So young and full of angst don't worry sweety you'll grow up and find someone else to hate besides god.

wtf?

my personal religious beliefs should not interfere with anyone else's rights to have abortion, same sex marriage or anything else.

my post refers to a democratic state with freedom of religion.

you shouldn't let your personal beliefs turn into law, otherwise you will interefere with other people's freedom. you can tell your daughter to be a virgin, fair enough, but you can't expect everyone else to feel the same (not even your daughter) in a FREE country.

They are using goverment money to tell children condoms don't work. That´s like not only a lie but it's fucking immoral.

if we allow ANY religious or institutional group take control of a large part of the media, we're not making sure we live in a free state. Religion/ politics/ media should be separate. People should be free to look for their religion rather than have it adverstised to them and suffering pressure and hostility in certain environments for having different beliefs - like you are doing to me.

I am not saying people shouldn't be christian. I am saying shoving christian values down people's throats in places where they have no choice but to be at (eg. school) is not democratic. Expecting people not to have civil rights because your church is against same sex marriage is not democratic.

I can tolerate them, so they have to tolerate me.

despite of your personal beliefs, you should look for civil tolerance, freedom and equality.
you have absolutely no idea how your post attacking me makes you sound like a hypocrite.

your post is so irrational it makes me nauseous - that's exactly what i´m talking about - the inability to NOT take things personally.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

That's precisely why everything should be related back to the words - and the spirit - of Jesus teachings. Otherwise you end up with things like Calvin's predestination. And we don't need theories like that.

ha ha ha, calvin... yeah... but like calvin there were a myriad others-- even today, the televangelists scamming millions of people into sending money to support hate-- the thing is that the words are not so easy to fathom-- there are various diverging versions plus the writings of the apostles plust the apocryphal gospels and who knows what is what? so in the end everyone grabs a piece of scripture and builds an edifice of bullshit on top of it with which to wield power over others.

which is by the way one of my problems with the reformation-- sure, the catholic church at the time was festering with corruption, but the centralized interpretation of the bible kept things more or less in check.

once everyone had the freedom to make up their own meaning, all kinds of shit religions started to pop up.

the reformation was great for the cause of freedom, but its downside is that it opened the door for all manner of cuckoo cults (ah, makes me miss the inquisition!-- no, not really).

i think the story of jesus is a nice metaphor for overcoming the limitations of the ego, and a good inspiration for socialism, and that's about that, but to try to turn it into a historical figure and find the "truth" about it is a kind of a wild goose chase.

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

Yes it does, yes there are, yes they can. But it's not hard to spot if something is going against the teachings of Jesus. In fact, it's about as difficult as breathing.

"as difficult as breathing"-- then history suffers from a case of punctured lungs.

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

The whole debate about contradictions and stuff is something I'm happy to discuss, but I won;t expand upon it right now.

that would be more theology than the interwebs can handle, and i could make a case about them myself, but in the end it ends up all being subjective. and subjective is fine, except that it's hard for it to become intersubjective.

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

All of the bad behaviour you rightly point out is nothing to do with being religious, it's to do with being human. Totally secular countries haven't been moral pillars either.

right, but we don't need religion in order to have morality. we have our own animal behavior and if we work it out with some philosophy morality is just fine-- we don't need a deity or metaphysics to justify morality.

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

The same goes for the atheists. I know atheists who are not bullies or bigots. And I know ones who are. They are every bit as repulsive as the aggressive Christians.

yes, but here in 'merica the aggressive christians are legion (yes, there's a pun intended). bazillions of demented believers in the clutches of a handful of quacks. it's frightful.

Originally Posted by Hip Priest

But I think we should avoid saying that talking about something is the same as forcing something upon you. Otherwise we should all shut up about everything. And the forum would be a tad dull.

oh, absolutely. love a good discussion. i don't think anybody here has accused you of being the next pat robertson.

behold: http://www.patrobertson.com/

i can't look much cuz i just had breakfast and i don't wanna vomit. but check it out.

[chicka]

Welcome back Gail good to see you again.....

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by knox

wtf?

my personal religious beliefs should not interfere with anyone else's rights to have abortion, same sex marriage or anything else.

my post refers to a democratic state with freedom of religion.

you shouldn't let your personal beliefs turn into law, otherwise you will interefere with other people's freedom. you can tell your daughter to be a virgin, fair enough, but you can't expect everyone else to feel the same (not even your daughter) in a FREE country.

They are using goverment money to tell children condoms don't work. That´s like not only a lie but it's fucking immoral.

if we allow ANY religious or institutional group take control of a large part of the media, we're not making sure we live in a free state. Religion/ politics/ media should be different things. People should be free to look for their religion rather than have it adverstised to them and suffering pressure and hostility in certain environments for having different beliefs - like you are doing to me.

I am not saying people shouldn't be christian. I am saying shoving christian values down people's throats in places where they have no choice but to be at (eg. school) is not democratic. Expecting people not to have civil rights because your church is against same sex marriage is not democratic.

I can tolerate them, so they have to tolerate me.

your post is so irrational it makes me nauseous - that's exactly what i´m talking about - the inability to NOT take things personally.

Oh I took nothing personal. And I do belive in the separation of church and state. I just notice that whenever the topic of god is brought up you are there shouting how much christians hate gay people and won't let them get married. So it seems that you are taking things quite personally to me. I was only reacting to the evident hostility you must harbor towards christians. Not trying to shove anything down your throat. You posted on the thread on your own accord and it is a thread that pertains to religion.

I do not belong to a church nor expect them to make the law. I just think that abstinance should be taught as well as protection. Protection is not fool proof. Why do you think there are so many herpes medicine commercials?

Politics took over media a very long time ago, I think the bible channel will never be able to take em down.

The whole public school debate can get pretty hairy. Is it wrong to give people the choice of school they would like to go to (home, public, private) using tax money or is it wrong to let them "choose" to go to the grade F school in thier district because they cannot go anywhere but where the government mandates.

Separating church and state can get pretty difficult. we got that whole "in god we trust" on the money. Pretty much most of our constitution was based on christian beliefs. One Nation under God.

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by chicka

Welcome back Gail good to see you again.....

Well thanks! I did'nt think anyone noticed I was even gone.

[SONIC GAIL]

Knox: Neg rep aren't taking things personal?

Havent you heard straight from the youth "Heaven's not about your reputation"?

[knox]

I don't have anything against christians, I just have something against certain people using religion to interfere with personal freedom, which doesn't even sound christian to me. So you're simply assuming things about me and being quite irrational.

If a christian person believes in stopping gay people from getting civil rights, I get pretty upset. But that says nothing about christians in general. What is your personal stand on that?

Why did I have to get attacked for not being christian? Why is that it makes YOU assume that I HATE christians or god or whatever, and therefore feel entitled to attack me?

People are touchy about reps on this board aren't they? I didn't like your patronizing tone, and by the way you don't even know anything about my personal beliefs and my age. so once again. wtf.

I completely disagree that abstinence should be taught. You should teach children FACTS to protect themselves and know what they are doing, their personal choices should remain personal.

These teenagers are being told LIES about birth protection and protection against STDS. They are being told that they do not work. We all know that they do work when they are used properly. And we know the numbers that the so called abstinence does not work, teenagers get pregnant and infected MORE when they are not informed.

It is not the goverments place to dictate children's sexual lives. It is personal. Also, this "teaching abstinence" is also teaching children that being homosexual is wrong, and that they should get medical help. how's that for equality?

[SONIC GAIL]

The world is just not that black and white. Pesonal freedoms are defined differently depending on whom you ask.

[knox]

Not really. And you know it.

A home is a personal thing, a church is a place you choose to go to, a school is something public.

There's "supposed" to be free speech, free thought, religious freedom, equal civil rights.

If you are enforcing your values on people you're taking away that freedom. Freedom that you should cherish and protect, because you too have it.

I hope you are not a christian tho, because I thought good christians shouldn't be judgmental.

[knox]

I also like how you didn't address any of the points and questions.

[Glice]

I have to say I think it's really important that church and state remain separate, for each other's sake. At least in a 'secular' democracy. I'd defend the rights to religious freedom to the hilt, but I'd defend the necessity for democracy to be secular (in principle at least - cf Turkey).

[wellcharge]

what kind of fuckup god would let a thread like this happen

[SONIC GAIL]

Originally Posted by knox

I don't have anything against christians, I just have something against certain people using religion to interfere with personal freedom, which doesn't even sound christian to me. So you're simply assuming things about me and being quite irrational.

If a christian person believes in stopping gay people from getting civil rights, I get pretty upset. But that says nothing about christians in general. What is your personal stand on that?

Why did I have to get attacked for not being christian? Why is that it makes YOU assume that I HATE christians or god or whatever, and therefore feel entitled to attack me?

People are touchy about reps on this board aren't they? I didn't like your patronizing tone, and by the way you don't even know anything about my personal beliefs and my age. so once again. wtf.

I completely disagree that abstinence should be taught. You should teach children FACTS to protect themselves and know what they are doing, their personal choices should remain personal.

These teenagers are being told LIES about birth protection and protection against STDS. They are being told that they do not work. We all know that they do work when they are used properly. And we know the numbers that the so called abstinence does not work, teenagers get pregnant and infected MORE when they are not informed.

It is not the goverments place to dictate children's sexual lives. It is personal. Also, this "teaching abstinence" is also teaching children that being homosexual is wrong, and that they should get medical help. how's that for equality?

I could give a fuck less if gay people get married. It affects me in no way.

I did not attack you because you are not a christian. I was making observations after reading through the thread.

And by the way you can tell a lot about a person's personal beliefs as well as age when they display them in posts. This is not the first of your posts I have read.

What does wtf mean? Why the fuss?

Where are your facts? I have a 4 year old fact that condoms break.



And how in the hell is abstinance teaching that being a homosexual is wrong? The episcipal church supports gay marriage and has gay preists.

And I know a few facts who now have STDs.

Happy new year. I'm goin home.