[knox]

maybe we need to mention more names
and it'll work

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Well, its interesting even if you dont think the war in 2003 was the right decision. It isnt a deconstruction of the arguements for or against that policy, its more about whether you can call yourself a proper liberal person if you dont explicitly and actively support liberal people in oppressive regimes.

It wont have much resonance unless youre British but if you are its well worth picking up.

I supported/support the Iraq war because they were removing a tyrant. They don't seem to have done a very good job of it though.

[knox]

how many people do you have to kill to remove a tyrant?
how come other tyrants are still ok? if you're going to get rid of tyrants better do a good job and get rid of all od them, including the tyrants removing tyrants.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

It's like Marquez crossed with Marx

even better, Garcia-Marquez with Marx! (or was that what you meant )

 

Originally Posted by Lurker

I supported/support the Iraq war because they were removing a tyrant. They don't seem to have done a very good job of it though.

but Lurker, how could you support removing a tyrant by means of authoritarian tyranny?

[Rob Instigator]

what is relevant is that we went in and "overthrew" a leader of a sovereign nation without any real reason, regardless of whether he is tyrannical or not.

If, say, China decided that Obama was "tyrannical" would any excuse justify the chinese invading our country to remove our leader?

I say NO.


Our country is going to shit so fast...

[knox]

Your country. lol.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

what is relevant is that we went in and "overthrew" a leader of a sovereign nation without any real reason, regardless of whether he is tyrannical or not.

If, say, China decided that Obama was "tyrannical" would any excuse justify the chinese invading our country to remove our leader?

I say NO.


Our country is going to shit so fast...

hence "removing a tyrant by means of authoritarian tyranny?"

Rob, your a smart man, how could our country be going to shit so fast? That implies it was worth something in the first place! You have to be somewhere good, to fall from grace and become something bad. If the damned thing was bad from the beginning, where is this shit that we are going? I think we were already in some pretty deep shit since the 1490s

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

hence "removing a tyrant by means of authoritarian tyranny?"

Rob, your a smart man, how could our country be going to shit so fast? That implies it was worth something in the first place! You have to be somewhere good, to fall from grace and become something bad. If the damned thing was bad from the beginning, where is this shit that we are going? I think we were already in some pretty deep shit since the 1490s

to claim that the USA was all bad from the beginning is to paint with a very very wide brush. Of course there were and are issues. nothing is perfect and the USA is a work in progress, and the founders knew this, which is why there were methods for alteringa nd correcting the constituion built right into it.
Most of the genocidal killing of native peoples happened as a result of the SPANISH, blame the catholics for that shit man.
as far as the slave trade, com-plicit in the slave trade were the hundreds if not thousands of tribal leaders in africa who captured their enemies and sold them to white sailors. slavery in africa was a long-practiced state for millenia before the USA came around. It still exisst in many parts of the motherland, outright slavery.
Remember, the hebrews were as a whole race, enslaved by the egyptians, in africa.

The USA is a country that promotes relatively rapid change within itself, compared to other nations before it. Thank mario for the French dupe-king who aided the american revolutionaries.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by knox

how many people do you have to kill to remove a tyrant?

As I said, they didn't do very good job.

Originally Posted by knox

how come other tyrants are still ok? if you're going to get rid of tyrants better do a good job and get rid of all od them, including the tyrants removing tyrants.

Yeah maybe other tyrants would have been better choices but then Saddam was weak and tyrannical.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

but Lurker, how could you support removing a tyrant by means of authoritarian tyranny?

I don't think it was "authoritarian tyranny". Iraq is developing a democracy now.

[knox]

what a democratic thing to do.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

to claim that the USA was all bad from the beginning is to paint with a very very wide brush. Of course there were and are issues. nothing is perfect and the USA is a work in progress, and the founders knew this, which is why there were methods for alteringa nd correcting the constituion built right into it.
Most of the genocidal killing of native peoples happened as a result of the SPANISH, blame the catholics for that shit man.
as far as the slave trade, com-plicit in the slave trade were the hundreds if not thousands of tribal leaders in africa who captured their enemies and sold them to white sailors. slavery in africa was a long-practiced state for millenia before the USA came around. It still exisst in many parts of the motherland, outright slavery.
Remember, the hebrews were as a whole race, enslaved by the egyptians, in africa.

The USA is a country that promotes relatively rapid change within itself, compared to other nations before it. Thank mario for the French dupe-king who aided the american revolutionaries.

that is not true.. The British were as genocidal and horrifying in their treatment of Indians as the Spanish, in fact worse! The spanish eventually mellowed out and settled for assimilation, the Brits well they never stopped fighting, and we as Americans inherited their fight, well into the 1890s my brother! Jesus that is a long time to be killing innocent people in cold blood, from the Pequot Wars in the early 1600s to the turn of the 20th century! I say that is not painting with a wide brush.. I'd say that is just plain bad history and bad blood for america.

and slavery, blaiming the victim is a cop-out.. Of course Africans were selling their own brothers to the slave trade, but who were they selling them too? Who built up such an inhuman demand for labor? And you should know that in African the institution of slavery was far less brutal and dehumanizing as it was in the Americas, slaves in Africa were considered part of the family/household and even achieved status and power, where as in the Americas, a nigger is nigger slave or free.

Again, this is not an attack on you Rob, I really like you, but I must stand firm against your position. America was doomed from the very beginning, and the Constitution only makes it worse, because how could you say some bullshit like "All men are created equal" and forget to add the asterisk * (africans and indians not included as men)

The US Constitution is the biggest crock of shit I ever read, especially because it was, is and will never be implemented, it is strictly rhetorical.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

to claim that the USA was all bad from the beginning is to paint with a very very wide brush. Of course there were and are issues. nothing is perfect and the USA is a work in progress, and the founders knew this, which is why there were methods for alteringa nd correcting the constituion built right into it.
Most of the genocidal killing of native peoples happened as a result of the SPANISH, blame the catholics for that shit man.
as far as the slave trade, com-plicit in the slave trade were the hundreds if not thousands of tribal leaders in africa who captured their enemies and sold them to white sailors. slavery in africa was a long-practiced state for millenia before the USA came around. It still exisst in many parts of the motherland, outright slavery.
Remember, the hebrews were as a whole race, enslaved by the egyptians, in africa.

The USA is a country that promotes relatively rapid change within itself, compared to other nations before it. Thank mario for the French dupe-king who aided the american revolutionaries.

i dont think he was blaming you for slavery or anything.
basically just saying it has always been shit.

[Lurker]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

If, say, China decided that Obama was "tyrannical" would any excuse justify the chinese invading our country to remove our leader?

Firstly excuses aren't justifications by definition. And surely if that did happen you would think it was unjustified, because Obama isn't tyrannical.

[knox]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

that is not true.. The British were as genocidal and horrifying in their treatment of Indians as the Spanish, in fact worse! The spanish eventually mellowed out and settled for assimilation, the Brits well they never stopped fighting, and we as Americans inherited their fight, well into the 1890s my brother! Jesus that is a long time to be killing innocent people in cold blood, from the Pequot Wars in the early 1600s to the turn of the 20th century! I say that is not painting with a wide brush.. I'd say that is just plain bad history and bad blood for america.

and slavery, blaiming the victim is a cop-out.. Of course Africans were selling their own brothers to the slave trade, but who were they selling them too? Who built up such an inhuman demand for labor? And you should know that in African the institution of slavery was far less brutal and dehumanizing as it was in the Americas, slaves in Africa were considered part of the family/household and even achieved status and power, where as in the Americas, a nigger is nigger slave or free.

Again, this is not an attack on you Rob, I really like you, but I must stand firm against your position. America was doomed from the very beginning, and the Constitution only makes it worse, because how could you say some bullshit like "All men are created equal" and forget to add the asterisk * (africans and indians not included as men)

The US Constitution is the biggest crock of shit I ever read, especially because it was, is and will never be implemented, it is strictly rhetorical.

well i think i numbers the spanish have killed more natives than anyone else in the world, sorry brits.

[knox]

Originally Posted by Lurker

Firstly excuses aren't justifications by definition. And surely if that did happen you would think it was unjustified, because Obama isn't tyrannical.

the definition of tyrannical.
you might not think he is, but to a lot of people america is tyrannical.
are you really trying to say the us did not support any tyrannical fascist dictatorship? because.
and are you trying to say that it was done in the name of democracy? if so, you got a lot of places to invade and a lot of people to kill.

[Rob Instigator]

the spanish have killed more people, if you count the mass genocides in the america,s the disease they brought to the Inca empire, the inquisition, the crusades in the motherland, the spanish armada, etc etc.

those fuckers were worse than the germans and the japanese put together!!!!!

[knox]

not just the inca people, pretty much all the native people in latin america.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

it is strictly rhetorical.

the same thing could be said for the Holy Bible, as a document which is great in theory, but which has been put in practice by humans in a most horrible way.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by knox

not just the inca people, pretty much all the native people in latin america.

ahh, but the inca had those fly big titty shorties....