[demonrail666]

I posted that after listening to a football phone-in on the radio after the game, where the host was banging on about how unmitigatingly shit Holland were. So I suppose all I was trying to say was simply that their problems were laid bare, due to the relative strength of their group, compared with others. Holland weren't good, that's obvious, but, with the exception of Germany (who admittedly I didn't see last night), I've been underwhelmed by all the bigger name sides so far.


Re the TikiTaka thing, there's times when I see Spain and it all seems to be in place but, as you say, they miss Villa and can look rather silly when they string a thousand passes together around the box, only for the play to eventually break down because there's nobody around to score (although Torres is looking better than he has been).

I think one of the problems with teams trying to replicate tiki-taka more generally is that it's so bound up with Barcelona that any other team is bound not to do it as well simply because they aren't that unit (although Spain obviously comes closest) and without Messi, that style just doesn't seem anywhere near as potent.

I also think teams have worked out ways of defeating it, even when done well. Mourinho in particular. Guardiola left Barca at the right time. The style he developed with them has drawn to an end, I think. For a while nobody could handle it but not anymore. Plus I think Guardiola became, if anything, too experimental, I remember seeing him field a team with no defence at all, once, just to see what happened - they won lol). Anyway, it all became a bit too vain in the end (and I say that as a massive Guardiola fan, overall).

The England goals were interesting. Carroll's header was probably the least sensational but was my favourite. A very English-style centre forward's goal. As Bertrand would recognise, very Roy of the Rovers. Welbecks especially (while I do think he meant it) will always be tainted (in England at least) by the same 'did he?/didn't he?' doubts that've plagued many of the most brilliant goals English fans have seen. England has a very simple, direct foorballing culture. Its footballing heroes tend to be strong and ruthlessly focused (Rooney, Shearer, etc) rather than the more technically gifted, flamboyant ones (Gazza being the one obvious exception). It's the cliche of all cliches but there does seem to be an element of truth (as with all cliches) that England prefers the more blood and guts, up 'n' at 'em/backs to the wall type of players over anything else. We've never been a centre of footballing excellence but can be very very effective, and I think that appeals to supporters who embrace the more pragmatic side of the game, rather than those who look upon it principally as art. Although I suppose the actual art is finding a balance between the two - say Villa era Barcelona.

(Sorry, I'm going on a bit here)

The sad thing (from my point of view) is that there's a culture growing in the English FA (as well as certain sections of fans) who've been seduced by Barcelona and insists English football tries to replicate their more flair-based style, rather than build on what it's actually very good at, as demonstrated by Carroll's header. It's not 'Olay' football, more a kind of pinch-faced, "get in there!" but it's what England does/is and, I have to admit, I'm a fan of that kind of style, at least when it comes to the national team. It's a genuine identity, I think, rather than one that's coercing a bunch of pork scratchings eaters (metaphorically speaking) into switching to tapas. '

International football is governed by stereotypes and while most don't apply anymore they still endure as a kind of 'definition' of what different countries are 'about', so if Brazil has it's 'beautiful football', Spain has its Tiki Taka and the Dutch have Total football, England perhaps has that photo of Terry Butcher, wild-eyed, clenching his fist, covered in blood, or the one of Stuart Pearce's goal celebration with his neck muscles looking about to snap and (once again) his fists clenched (clenched fists seem to be a big thing in English national football). They're both perfect emblems of England's obsession with gritty, passionate footballers even if they're far more likely to win hearts than they are football matches.

 

 

[!@#$%!]

dammit man, i'm trying to reply to this but it's long. i read it all, but i have to do some work before the games start (it's nearly 10am here), and answering each point would delay me, so i'll keep it short then: YES! (also: who is the toothless lesbian?)

[demonrail666]

Stuart Pearce

And don't worry, I was really just killing time with that post, and pretty much just thinking aloud rather than making any coherent post.

[!@#$%!]

ha ha no, it was a good read! it's just that i'm on a tight schedule till 12:30 (25 min work, 5 min break, etc.)

tiki-taka is not new of course (except in name), neither is it a barca monopoly,but it's now being taken to extremes. "i can't score unless i walk into the net with the ball" . blagh!

[pokkeherrie]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

You can't make excuses, you have to beat the teams you're tied against, but nobody's gonna tell me Greece are a better team than Holland. Losing to Denmark in a game I still think they deserved to win was what ultimately ended Holland's tournament. I'm still not saying they weren't a disappointment but it's far easir covering over cracks (as I believe say Spain are) when you're facing a team like the Rep of Ireland than you are having to deal with the likes of Germany or Portugal.

I could list several arguments for all three games and why Holland deserved to lose them all... but it's a bit pointless. I'll just list my biggest questions after this tournament.

1. Holland were flying through qualification, scored the most goals from all teams, thrashed Sweden, Hungary (and San Marino even 11-0) but from the moment they had qualified they lost their first game after that (Sweden away) and haven't played a single decent game since.

2. In all 3 games Holland started pretty well for 15 minutes, only to completely fall apart immediately after, conceding a goal between the 15 and 30th minute.

3. maybe related to nr 2, but all the Dutch players seemed to lack fitness. Both Morten Olsen and Joachim Loew commented on that after beating Holland. While there were a lot of players who had disappointing seasons or came back from injuries, it's still strange.


I can't wait for all the shit-slinging that's gonna come out in the next few days/weeks. It could be something of epic 1990/1996 proportions... and while those two tournaments were certainly a disaster, the results still weren't as bad as they are in 2012 (worst result ever). From the little that has come out so far it certainly seems to involve some big egos, dissatisfied substitutes, a lack of self-reflection and at least one player leaking to the press.

I wonder what Van Marwijk will do.. or what the Dutch FA will do for that matter. It has to be said that Van Marwijk has favoured some players ahead of others in terms of first picks and privileges. I could imagine some players being fed up with him (most obviously Huntelaar), while others have already pledged full support (Sneijder in particular).

[Bertrand]

The goals have been brilliant, some saves too.

I found Carroll's header more impressive than his partners' goals - he was quite far from the cage, wasn't he?

If that was English, then tomorrow, Hart will have to be at his sloppiest to be on par with his predecessors...

[pokkeherrie]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

the space was given cuz they were chasing khedira and ozil as well (especially ozil). that's the thing about them, they are all great.

In my view, they weren't really chasing anyone. Holland was one disorganised mess and that was exactly the problem. If you get outclassed on midfield like happened in the Germany game then the least you could do is stay organised and defend, but the holding midfielders were way too static, the defence weren't confident enough to defend forward and the forwards neglected their defensive duties, resulting in the team falling apart into two blocks. That's why there was so much space and why Van Bommel fell through so obviously. Showed he's too old to cover that space. He didn't have that problem at AC Milan because they play so compact, but it was probably the most painful thing about the Holland-Germany game.

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

and similarly, i see germany as a very strong team but i'm not convinced yet-- i mean today against tiny denmark they fucking struggled and ruined my beer drinking and gave me a headache. on paper they are great but then they try to play like barcelona, and watching them is an exercise in frustration

Obviously I didn't see that game because I was watching the other one, but I'm willing to bet that Germany didn't get that much space from Denmark as they were given by the Dutch. The Danes have been well organised this tournament. Again, my point being that Germany aren't on their top-top level yet compared to 2010-2011. Denmark are in no way a bad team though, it has to be said.

[Bertrand]

Did Van Marwijk have a plan, or was it all just a big improvisation?
Because it looked like there was no strategy.
It was even more sickening as what they did during the World Cup final.

I read about egos (Robben suggested something along those lines) (Huntelaar's black eye? he looked all the more fed up) (didn't care to track back when he lost the ball - which meant he had it once during the second half on the right flank...).

In 2002, France collapsed. They had won the World cup and the following Euro, had three of the best strikers of the times, but couldn't score once.
Yet, the French could tell themselves most of it was due to Pires' injury preventing him to be there as the creative midfielder he was, and to Zidane's in the last friendly against China.

There's not even that with Netherlands.
No bus strike either.
This is so disappointing.
The sad faces of Van M. and Cocu (poor Philip).

[I typed that while pokkeherrie was posting - it wasn't meant to be that more salt on the wounds]

[the ikara cult]

I have a funny feeling Croatia might score... (85 minutes gone)

[the ikara cult]

... and two minutes later Spain score haha. No wonder I never win the fantasy leagues.

[!@#$%!]

the italy/ireland game was a bit shit-- except for balotelli's amazing goal. okay, the first goal was cool too but balotelli's was a thing of beauty. cassano had a great 1st half. and there was some hilarity in the foul department.

should i watch the spain game later, or am i better off napping? i started watching that one first, but it was dull, so i changed it.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

the italy/ireland game was a bit shit-- except for balotelli's amazing goal. okay, the first goal was cool too but balotelli's was a thing of beauty. cassano had a great 1st half. and there was some hilarity in the foul department.

should i watch the spain game later, or am i better off napping? i started watching that one first, but it was dull, so i changed it.

Although he never scored, I thought Di Natale was excellent, especially in the first half. He creates a real problem for Prandelli. Balotelli is capable of the kind of goal he just scored but he's also capable of getting sent off or ... anything. He's the ultimate impact sub for me. Someone you bring on when you need to go for broke.

Anyway, I'm glad Italy went through, they've probably been my favourites so far.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Although he never scored, I thought Di Natale was excellent, especially in the first half. He creates a real problem for Prandelli. Balotelli is capable of the kind of goal he just scored but he's also capable of getting sent off or ... anything. He's the ultimate impact sub for me. Someone you bring on when you need to go for broke.

Anyway, I'm glad Italy went through, they've probably been my favourites so far.

yes yes, dinatale was great too, especially that shot from near the corner line was a beautiful thing!

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Bertrand

Did Van Marwijk have a plan, or was it all just a big improvisation?
Because it looked like there was no strategy.
It was even more sickening as what they did during the World Cup final.

I read about egos (Robben suggested something along those lines) (Huntelaar's black eye? he looked all the more fed up) (didn't care to track back when he lost the ball - which meant he had it once during the second half on the right flank...).

In 2002, France collapsed. They had won the World cup and the following Euro, had three of the best strikers of the times, but couldn't score once.
Yet, the French could tell themselves most of it was due to Pires' injury preventing him to be there as the creative midfielder he was, and to Zidane's in the last friendly against China.

There's not even that with Netherlands.
No bus strike either.
This is so disappointing.
The sad faces of Van M. and Cocu (poor Philip).

[I typed that while pokkeherrie was posting - it wasn't meant to be that more salt on the wounds]

Yeah, as far as collapses go it was very unspectacular. But what's the story with Huntelaar's black eye?

I still think a moment of individual quality could've seen them through at least to the quarter finals (still a big comedown considering they were a lot of people's favourites) but their problem definitely seemed to be a total lack of any kind of connection within the team. I don't know what was going on behind the scenes but they definitely didn't look like a 'team'. So to speak. I think the big question is why Holland are so prone to this kind of in-fighting. Even when things are going well they seem constantly on the verge of some kind of falling out.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

yes yes, dinatale was great too, especially that shot from near the corner line was a beautiful thing!

God yeah! I forgot about that one. Of course, if he was English and it'd gone in, we'd all be poo pooing it as a fluffed cross.

And I have to say, what a decent man Buffon seems. It was clearly humid as fuck in the stadium and so nice to see him sharing his water bottle with an Irish defender during the game. Top man for that.

[the ikara cult]

Rooneys touch looks very off, not a good sign

[!@#$%!]

france's defense is leaking water against a vastly inferior team, the middle isn't really put together, and the attacks are weak and disorganized-- ribery and benzema are in different planets, and various shots to the goal have generally headed towards the moon.

if they continue like this and end up facing italy it's going to be a carnage. i don't see their defense holding up against pirlo / cassano / balotelli / dinatale, and i don't see their attackers getting past the italian defense.

[pokkeherrie]

Originally Posted by Bertrand

Did Van Marwijk have a plan, or was it all just a big improvisation?
Because it looked like there was no strategy.
It was even more sickening as what they did during the World Cup final.

I read about egos (Robben suggested something along those lines) (Huntelaar's black eye? he looked all the more fed up) (didn't care to track back when he lost the ball - which meant he had it once during the second half on the right flank...).

In 2002, France collapsed. They had won the World cup and the following Euro, had three of the best strikers of the times, but couldn't score once.
Yet, the French could tell themselves most of it was due to Pires' injury preventing him to be there as the creative midfielder he was, and to Zidane's in the last friendly against China.

There's not even that with Netherlands.
No bus strike either.
This is so disappointing.
The sad faces of Van M. and Cocu (poor Philip).

[I typed that while pokkeherrie was posting - it wasn't meant to be that more salt on the wounds]

There was some silly plan involving right-footed players on the left and left-footed players on the right, supposedly creating space for the two backs to move forward... but while it was obvious that it was doomed to fail, he certainly didn't have a plan B in case the original one wouldn't work.

Top scorer of the Premier League + topscorer of the Bundesliga equals no goals between them. No feed. Huntelaar vs Portugal: shots 1, on target 0, dribbles 0. But it all went wrong beforehand. Instead of playing both of them, Van Marwijk figured he could only field one of them creating a battle/feud between them.

Van Persie was always his first pick, Huntelaar is right to feel he didn't really get a fair chance. That one pre-tournament friendly where he could prove himself as central striker, he had to deal with Van der Vaart on the left (not a winger) and Van Persie on the right who was obviously sabotaging him (visually disinterested, played the ball only once to Huntelaar during the entire 90 minutes). Despite scoring 12 goals in 8 games in qualification, he was destined to be a substitute. Only Messi and Ronaldo have scored more goals this season. What more did he have to do to convince Van Marwijk?

So while Van Persie felt Huntelaar breathing in his neck every time he wasted a chance, Huntelaar was getting more and more frustrated on the bench. What must have added to his frustration is that someone like Afellay walked into the starting line-up, right after coming back from a heavy injury, having barely played 100 minutes for Barcelona the entire year.

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Rooneys touch looks very off, not a good sign

Ukraine 0 - 1 England (Rooney)

Every time i say something in this thread the opposite happens...

[pokkeherrie]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Yeah, as far as collapses go it was very unspectacular. But what's the story with Huntelaar's black eye?

I still think a moment of individual quality could've seen them through at least to the quarter finals (still a big comedown considering they were a lot of people's favourites) but their problem definitely seemed to be a total lack of any kind of connection within the team. I don't know what was going on behind the scenes but they definitely didn't look like a 'team'. So to speak. I think the big question is why Holland are so prone to this kind of in-fighting. Even when things are going well they seem constantly on the verge of some kind of falling out.

I'm pretty sure the fireworks are going to come out in the next few days. I'll be disappointed if it's not going to be at least somewhat spectacular. Rumours/stories so far:

- there being two different groups in the squad... 1 around Sneijder wanting to play more offensive and 1 around Van Persie being more supportive of the current strategy.
- Bouma having punched a medic after the Germany game.
- Huntelaar being told he must shut up or else leave the tournament.
- Van der Wiel claiming his team mates wouldn't give him the ball (that might be a good thing actually, he obviously doesn't know what to do with it)


Huntelaar's black eye happened in a trip to the USA with Schalke 04 just before the Euros. He's been somewhat unlucky with his head this season. First a double-fractured nose at Schalke, followed by a nasty collision in a friendly with England and finally a concussion + black eye.

I don't know if Holland are particularly prone to infighting, but they certainly are more prone to it than England I think.