[knox]

uh i wanna stay for this

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by knox

well i think i numbers the spanish have killed more natives than anyone else in the world, sorry brits.

no my friend, that was disease, which though brought by the Spanish, was a natural disaster, not a genocide.

And apples for oranges aside, how do the guilt of one person exonerate the guilt of another? So what if the Spanish killed Indians? Does that somehow justify the Americans pursuing a viscous policy of OPEN GENOCIDE AND EXTERPITATION across the country from 1600s to the 1890s? So what if Africans sold their own brethren into slavery. Does that vindicate the Europeans and Americans for their EVIL participation and exponential expansion of that bullshit?

The problem with America, is that UNLIKE Europeans we are unwilling to take responsibility and own up to our history. ALL Americans are guilty of this, ALL of AMERICA is built upon this, why not call it as it is? Why hide the truth behind excuses and good intentions? We are not all bad people simply because our ancestors fucked up, but we WILL BECOME and continue to be bad people if we do not own up to their mistakes, honestly, respectfully, sincerely..

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by knox

well i think i numbers the spanish have killed more natives than anyone else in the world, sorry brits.

ah shit, i was about to stand up and shout WE'RE NUMBER ONE! out the window at the aeroplanes flying overhead.

[knox]

it doesnt
i thought i asked you to stop calling me my friend
dont start that shit about europeans taking responsibility
total bullshit

people fucked people over
they do
and they will

[the ikara cult]

I hate this idea that people around today are responsible for what governments did in the past. As far as reparations for slavery go the best thing we can do is support the continent where the original crime was committed.

[knox]

there was disease
and genocide too
everyone knows.

[knox]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

I hate this idea that people around today are responsible for what governments did in the past. As far as reparations for slavery go the best thing we can do is support the continent where the original crime was committed.

no people personally arent responsible for it.
of course not.

id just avoid whining too much about the eventual immigrant managing to try a better life from a country that has been exploited for wealth.

[the ikara cult]

Knox, i liked your music that youve posted, but when it comes to stuff like this you have nothing worthwhile to say.

[knox]

i mean, its the idea that slavery and exploitation and colonialism have ended thats strangely misguided. they probably thought to themselves at the time they had nothing to do with it too.

[knox]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

Knox, i liked your music that youve posted, but when it comes to stuff like this you have nothing worthwhile to say.

or maybe you dont like what im trying to say.

which is

a lot of people say... oh these countries, they were in bad positions before but they had plenty of time to develop and we no longer have anything to do with it.

when you could just say

oh my ancestors really fucked them over.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

I hate this idea that people around today are responsible for what governments did in the past. As far as reparations for slavery go the best thing we can do is support the continent where the original crime was committed.

The responsibility is not necessarily financial, it should be spiritual, intellectual. If Rob can honestly sit down and argue with me about the good intentions of the Founding Fathers and that America is build on good principles, despite 400 years of blood shed and injustice to the contrary, then we are not taking responsibility. We are the descendents of this mess, this mess is our herritage, we can't simply forget about it or ignore because it is unpleasant. We must deal with it, or it carries on as ever, festering, until it errupts again and again, and brothers and sisters, there is a lot of residual violence, racism, and poverty festering and errupting across America as a DIRECT result of the past mistakes..

This is why we must openly address these issues of our history, and make the necessary ammends in our hearts and minds, acknowledging the truth, without having to flinch and through out a bunch of excuses, cop-outs, and stuttering "buts" into the mix.

[knox]

colonialism hasn't ended, it just changed.

so, of course you are not responsible for what people did in the past
but you are partially responsible for what they do now
powerless, but still.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by knox

it doesnt
i thought i asked you to stop calling me my friend
dont start that shit about europeans taking responsibility
total bullshit

I told you get over it already and stop being an asshole about it. The more you fuck with me, the more I will be genuinely nice to you, especially because you don't like it

[knox]

genuinely

[the ikara cult]

The problem is i dont understand what youre trying to say.

ill have a guess
African nations were poor at the time of the slave trade, but since then theyve been free to develop their societies without interference from "us" so that lack of progress is not our responsibility.
You dont think thats the case, you think the legacy of slavery is still felt

Frankly that took alot more work to try and decipher than it should.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

no my friend, that was disease, which though brought by the Spanish, was a natural disaster, not a genocide.

And apples for oranges aside, how do the guilt of one person exonerate the guilt of another? So what if the Spanish killed Indians? Does that somehow justify the Americans pursuing a viscous policy of OPEN GENOCIDE AND EXTERPITATION across the country from 1600s to the 1890s? So what if Africans sold their own brethren into slavery. Does that vindicate the Europeans and Americans for their EVIL participation and exponential expansion of that bullshit?

The problem with America, is that UNLIKE Europeans we are unwilling to take responsibility and own up to our history. ALL Americans are guilty of this, ALL of AMERICA is built upon this, why not call it as it is? Why hide the truth behind excuses and good intentions? We are not all bad people simply because our ancestors fucked up, but we WILL BECOME and continue to be bad people if we do not own up to their mistakes, honestly, respectfully, sincerely..

I fully agree my man. Me and most of my fellow hispanics blame it all on "white folks."

hahahah

[Rob Instigator]

being Puertro Rican, from an island that was controlled by spain since it's discovery on Columbus' second trip to the New World, and controlled by the USA since the spanish american war of the late 19th century, I feel I am fairly unbiased in my unabashed admiration for the US Constitution. What I LOATHE is that too much of what currently passes for "giovernment" in the USA is clandestine, top secret bullshit, almost none of it held up to accountability of the Constitution.
The CIA, Military, FBI, Homeland Security, etc etc. There are over 11 different extra-legal intellgence and covert operations departments which were NOT set up by the constitution, and which are allowed to run unchecked, with their financing one giant ? because they are not required to report anything to congress due to alleged "national security concerns."

It is this mass exploitation that needs to be curtailed, not the actual constitution. It is these fucks that run proxy wars, that uphold tyrants who allow US corporations to do cheap business in their countries but opress their people, who allow covert pharmaceutical testing on Puerto Ricans, who allow the use of an inhabited island (Vieques) for navy and air force weapons testing, leaving the island covered with over 60 years of ordinance leaking caustic radioactive cancerous materials.

because Puerto Rico is not a State, and designated a Commonwealth, the 7000 or so inhabitants of Vieques are told by the US government that they cannot sue the US giovernment, . what a catch 22. If the Puerto Rico were a state, the Constitution could be used to fight these fucks, but it is not. this is the reason that most of the US illegal, unconstitutional activity is done in other countries from panama, to iraq, to mexico, since they can always claim the constitution does not apply in other "sovereign" nations.

the Constitution is so scary to these bastards that they ahve worked for decades to find every fucking loophole by which they will not be held up to it;'s harsh glare.

[the ikara cult]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

The responsibility is not necessarily financial, it should be spiritual, intellectual. If Rob can honestly sit down and argue with me about the good intentions of the Founding Fathers and that America is build on good principles, despite 400 years of blood shed and injustice to the contrary, then we are not taking responsibility. We are the descendents of this mess, this mess is our herritage, we can't simply forget about it or ignore because it is unpleasant. We must deal with it, or it carries on as ever, festering, until it errupts again and again, and brothers and sisters, there is a lot of residual violence, racism, and poverty festering and errupting across America as a DIRECT result of the past mistakes..

This is why we must openly address these issues of our history, and make the necessary ammends in our hearts and minds, acknowledging the truth, without having to flinch and through out a bunch of excuses, cop-outs, and stuttering "buts" into the mix.

Now i think you know how i feel about the "spiritual"
My family is all Irish, my grandfather was imprisoned by the english in the 40s and he nearly starved to death, so i think i can claim such an historical injustice has befallen myself. The race issues in the US are something i just dont have any direct experience of, and youre right of course that history matters. However you cant convince a person like me with that kind of arguement. The fact we have to help Africa, Haiti, and other places is a lesson that stands on its own, and though historical context helps explain why they are where they are, these needs can be justified on their own terms.

[knox]

Originally Posted by the ikara cult

The problem is i dont understand what youre trying to say.

ill have a guess
African nations were poor at the time of the slave trade, but since then theyve been free to develop their societies without interference from "us" so that lack of progress is not our responsibility.
You dont think thats the case, you think the legacy of slavery is still felt

Frankly that took alot more work to try and decipher than it should.

im trying to say colonialism still exists and the world is still divided by a minority exploiting and the majority being exploited, its quite obvious.

and of course, it takes time and resources to develop, so even if it was true that they were allowed to develop without interference (they are not), its still quite recent.

their current stage of development is a direct consequence of past actions.

[dale_gribble]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

If Rob can honestly sit down and argue with me about the good intentions of the Founding Fathers and that America is build on good principles, despite 400 years of blood shed and injustice

clearly he's arguing that the constitution is good and i would agree with him. just because it's about the rights of free men and it was written by slaveholders doesn't make it any less relevant. i like most of your posts and that wouldn't change if i found out you were a hypocrite. the arrangement of words is important despite who wrote them.