[dead_battery]

 

"If I were asked to characterize the present state of affairs, I would describe it as 'after the orgy'. The orgy in question was the moment when modernity exploded upon us, the moment of liberation in every sphere. Political liberation, sexual liberation, liberation of the forces of production, liberation of the forces of destruction, women's liberation, children's liberation, liberation of unconscious drives, liberation of art. [...] Now everything has been liberated, the chips are down, and we find ourselves faced collectively with the big question: WHAT DO WE DO NOW THE ORGY IS OVER?

"Now all we can do is simulate the orgy, simulate liberation. We may pretend to carry on in the same direction, accelerating, but in reality we are accelerating in a void, because all the goals of liberation are already behind us, and because what haunts and obsesses us is being thus ahead of all the results -- the very availability of all the signs, all the forms, all the desires that we had been pursuing. But what can we do? This is the state of simulation, a state in which we are obliged to replay all scenarios precisely because they have all taken place already, whether actually or potentially. The state of utopia realized, of all utopias realized, wherein paradoxically we must continue to live as though they had not been. But since they have, and since we can no longer, therefore, nourish the hope of realizing them, we can only 'hyper-realize' them through interminable simulation. We live amid the interminable reproduction of ideals, phantasies, images and dreams which are now behind us, yet which we must continue to reproduce in a sort of inescapable indifference."
-- Baudrillard

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

i have little doubt that suchfriends is a good and honourable guy, but he, along with many others, have lost their minds over this issue. the media told them it was a racially motivated murder, and they got so emotionally attached to it, they were unable to detach and rationally asses it.

You don't know what you're talking about and neither does the media. Its not about if Zimmerman was racists, or if he was racially motivated to kill Trayvon (though in truth, there is some evidence of racial bias based on several of his comments to the police in his 47 previous complaints). It is about the structural and societal racism which was why it took over a month to press charges. Why the jury let Zimmerman off, even from accidental death, even when Zimmerman completely admitted to being the shooter. The evidence we had was a dead, unarmed teenager, who happened to be black, and a grown ass man who ignored the 911 dispatcher who told him not to confront Trayvon, and who had no necessary legal right to confront Trayvon in the first place. If it were two middle-aged white men, and one had killed the other unarmed white man, I would STILL demand at least a manslaughter conviction.

i it just sucks that the media lied so much and made this into something it wasn't.

It remains what it always way, a cruel and brutal injustice. Again, AN UNARMED TEENAGER WAS WRONGFULLY CONFRONTED, ANTAGONIZED, AND SUBSEQUENTLY SHOT TO DEATH.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

At least a jury in Wisconsin managed to get this one right. However, there are still plenty of boneheads who continue to comment and insinuate that 13 year old Darius was somehow involved in the stealing of the guns, even when by all accounts he was quite literally a good kid who had just moved into the neighborhood a month previous. Further he was AT SCHOOL the day of the break in, vouched for by all his teachers.

A Milwaukee man who suspected his 13-year-old neighbor of breaking into his home and stealing weapons was convicted on Wednesday of fatally shooting the boy as the teen's mother looked on.

Spooner's daughter once brought home a kitten that he didn't want so he took it into the basement and killed it, Jackson said. Spooner also used to choke and beat his late wife, the doctor testified.
The violence shows Spooner occasionally loses the ability to control his anger — as during the moments when he shot Darius.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...teen-neighbor/

By the way, how does racism play into this? When a young, innocent black kid who was gunned down in cold blood bringing in his trash cans is lying dead in the street, the POLICE PUT HIS MOTHER WHO WITNESSED IT IN A SQUAD CAR FOR OVER TWO HOURS, THEN PROCEEDED TO TREAT DARIUS AS A SUSPECT INSTEAD OF A VICTIM AND RANSACKED HIS HOUSE, AND ARREST HIS OLDER BROTHER.


That is the structural and societal racism I am talking about dead_battery.

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

Just when I thought we were becoming sort of friends, you have to reiterate that boneheaded statement. I'm sorry to say this, but I am totally losing respect for you if you sincerely believe that anything remotely resembling "justice" was served.

Out of everything SuchFriends has said throughout this tread, I do believe the above bothers me the most. Not because he thinks I'm a bonehead......because he possibly thinks our "SYG Friendship" tinkers on us agreeing on certain topics.

SuchFriends - I appreciate who you are (or at least who I think you are) and the things you believe in and stand for. However, for myself, it's okay if we don't always see eye to eye. Having differentiating opinions / beliefs is fine by me and in no way makes me think any less of you.

It was a sad thing that happened to Zimmerman / Martin. You have to feel for both families for this ordeal they've suffered. You can never truly know someones heart / intent in situations like this.

If someone was attacking me and I thought my life was in danger, I know I would try to protect myself and possibly use deadly force if needed......but I can't say for sure I could pull the trigger??? I hope and pray I'm never faced with this situation!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Again. Bytor, if you sincerely believe that trial was anything remotely resembling justice, than I can't understand you in the least, and can't help but assume the worst. I've enjoyed talking sports, and music, and culture with you, and you go a cool personality here. However, justice is a fundamental, core value for me. Its not just kind of casual disagreement. I have expressed a lot of heated emotion on this thread, and I regret none of it aside from the scathing tone or personal attacks I made against people. However, know this, a horrifying injustice was served in this verdict, and it will pain me for years to come.

[h8kurdt]

What would justice be for you? Him going down for life? It was never going to happen on the basis that it was two people's story. One of whom didn't get to tell his story cos he's dead. Does that suck? of course it does.

The fact of the matter is that there's no concrete evidence to say Zimmerman killed for the sake of killing someone. If anything it's the opposite.

Put it this way-ignoring the situation surrounding it. If someone started kicking your ass and you had a gun on you, would you shoot back? Of course you would. Would you shoot to kill? hopefully not.

I dunno..this story is getting boring now and the fact of the matter is that this is one injustice (in your eyes) among the many, many more that have happened before and during this case. Why focus on this one? Cos the press decided to push this story over any other. Is there anything that makes this more special? No other than that it had a good tag line.

[h8kurdt]

.....

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by h8kurdt

What would justice be for you? Him going down for life? It was never going to happen on the basis that it was two people's story. One of whom didn't get to tell his story cos he's dead. Does that suck? of course it does.

Please don't exaggerate for the sake of trolling. I have on no less than THREE posts here said manslaughter would have been fine. I'd say a fair punishment for a shooting resulting in a death after a fight that the defendant started would be 1-2 years in Prison.

Put it this way-ignoring the situation surrounding it. If someone started kicking your ass and you had a gun on you, would you shoot back? Of course you would. Would you shoot to kill? hopefully not.

Yeah, but Zimmerman started the fucking fight!

[dead_battery]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

You don't know what you're talking about and neither does the media. Its not about if Zimmerman was racists, or if he was racially motivated to kill Trayvon (though in truth, there is some evidence of racial bias based on several of his comments to the police in his 47 previous complaints). It is about the structural and societal racism which was why it took over a month to press charges. Why the jury let Zimmerman off, even from accidental death, even when Zimmerman completely admitted to being the shooter. The evidence we had was a dead, unarmed teenager, who happened to be black, and a grown ass man who ignored the 911 dispatcher who told him not to confront Trayvon, and who had no necessary legal right to confront Trayvon in the first place. If it were two middle-aged white men, and one had killed the other unarmed white man, I would STILL demand at least a manslaughter conviction.



It remains what it always way, a cruel and brutal injustice. Again, AN UNARMED TEENAGER WAS WRONGFULLY CONFRONTED, ANTAGONIZED, AND SUBSEQUENTLY SHOT TO DEATH.

Sounds like you're saying that because he was black, we have to understand that he's so sensitive and aggressive, even the slightest hint of "antagonism" can set him off.

How was he antagonized? HOW? He chose to walk over and beat the crap out of Zimmerman, who was a decent guy trying to protect a neighbourhood that had collectively called the cops 400 times over a 2 month period. Explain how Zimmerman was wrong in his decision to look out for and follow a suspicious person in a neighbourhood like that? Explain how he wasn't a decent man trying to protect his property and his neighbor's property and safety. Explain how, if I was standing in that alley, inert, for no discernible reason, it would not be PERFECTLY justifiable, and in fact, socially conscientious, to call the cops and follow me until they arrived at the very least?

Go on, explain how his "antagonism" justifies Trayvon leaping on him and beating the shit out of him? He was standing in an alleyway, the surrounded houses had been burglarized MANY times! Zimmerman was perfectly right to call the cops. Explain how Zimmerman started the fight?

He was also perfectly justified in firing his gun after getting lept on and punched repeatedly in the head.

Cos I can't see a single instance were this evil racist plot to murder an innocent black man then refuse to jail his killer actually HAPPENED, apart from in your mind and the media.

You decided there was structural racism because you want there to be. You don't want equality, because you bask in the righteous innocence of the oppressed. Your religion is a form of mystic christo ethiopian ethno nationalism. You're biased.

I think its a real shame what happened, and it's a real shame that blacks in the US are in the position they are often in. And that the mixture of squalor and poverty and racist prejudice are not simply a matter of the latter causing the former, as you need it to be. That is too simplistic and its not a model that can fix the problem.

[Rob Instigator]

http://www.chesnuttarchive.org/class...chingstat.html

From 1882-1968, 4,743 lynchings occurred in the United States. Of these people that were lynched 3,446 were black. The blacks lynched accounted for 72.7% of the people lynched. These numbers seem large, but it is known that not all of the lynchings were ever recorded. Out of the 4,743 people lynched only 1,297 white people were lynched. That is only 27.3%. Many of the whites lynched were lynched for helping the black or being anti lynching

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by dead_battery

Zimmerman, who was a decent guy trying to protect a neighbourhood that had collectively called the cops 400 times over a 2 month period. Explain how Zimmerman was wrong in his decision to look out for and follow a suspicious person in a neighbourhood like that? Explain how he wasn't a decent man trying to protect his property and his neighbor's property and safety. Explain how, if I was standing in that alley, inert, for no discernible reason, it would not be PERFECTLY justifiable, and in fact, socially conscientious, to call the cops and follow me until they arrived at the very least?

do you really buy all this or are you playing language games?

me, i'm skeptical about anybody's sainthood but i think the evidence leans towards a physical altercation started by trayvon. otherwise-- decency, innocence, thievery, purple drank, wanna-be-cop -- i partially believe all that but also remain skeptical about all that. all we have is the evidence presented at the trial.

in other words, the defense convinced the jury that zimmerman had reason to shoot-- not based on "stand your ground," by the way, because zimmerman didn't have the choice to walk away with his back on the ground (supposedly), but based on classic self-defense. i read from the juror interviews that some jurors wanted to convict on something, no matter what, but just didn't have a legal justification to do so and they had to go with acquittal.

anyway, there are no saints and demons are quite rare. but there are HEROES OF COSPLAY!

[dead_battery]

yes, i honestly do think that.

based on Zimmermans past behaviour, based on listening to an hour long radio interview with his brother. based on the 911 call etc.

but lets say that Zimmerman walked over to him and said something - like what - "hey what the fuck are you doing?" i doubt he said anything worse than that. how does that excuse Trayvon leaping on him and beating the shit out of him? why didn't Trayvon walk the fuck away?

does anyone really think he went up to him and said "hey n***** wtf you doing here?" then started pushing him? nah. but lets say he did, Trayvons move here is still to walk the fuck away then call the cops later. a difficult move for anyone with a temper to make, but its the move you have to make.

it comes down to the fact that no matter WHAT the circumstances, when you start pummeling a person, especially a fat weaker person who is on the ground, they cannot be expected to just hope you stop and wait. you risk brain damage/death. best thing would have been if he had have shot him in the leg or shoulder or something.

we have to be on the side of people, in a bad neighbourhood that is robbed a lot especially, but ultimately in any neighbourhood - defending their privacy, property and civility. if we dont do this then civilization does not function. people have a right to be able to sit at home and NOT have to stand hidden behind curtains, watching those outside on the street, hoping they decide to move on.

it is not reasonable to stand still in an alleyway behind someones property and expect them to do nothing.

so if Zimmerman, or anyone, is living or protecting a neighbourhood that is constantly robbed, and they see someone acting suspicious - and even if the fact that that person is black is what tips him over the edge to go investigate - then he's doing nothing wrong.

if that's racial profiling, then fine. you can racially profile someone and not be prejudiced against their race if that race happens to - for whatever reason - indicate a likelihood for criminality. eg. there is a lot of them in that area, and a lot of them commit crimes. shit, as a good anti racist, you would understand this if you had ANY understanding of the shitty conditions they have to struggle to survive in.

its not fair to BLAME them for crimes simply BECAUSE of their race. but it is fair to be on your guard about ANY feature of an individual that you notice in that situation. oh, but guys like suchfriends, if they see a black guy in a business suit, immaculately clean and shaved and steady on his feet - they think he's as likely to be about to rob someone than a swaying, smoking disheveled looking man white smoking a cigarette in poor clothes? give me a fucking break.

[Bytor Peltor]

There was no doubt Martin had his hands on Zimmerman......beating him.

If Zimmerman didn't have his gun and couldn't stop Martin on his own, there is every reason to believe Zimmerman would be dead and the masses would not know or care about someone named Martin......who would now be doing time because he beat someone to death.

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by foreverasskiss

yeah, but who said what to who? we'll never know. WAnnAbe cops follow people all the time and what did Zimmerman say to or provoke Martin to make him lose his skittle dank high? again, it's tragic and shouldn't have happened.

Zimmerman is like the ones who ride shot gun with deputies trying to prove their hardcore statis, but come across like a loser with bad breath who you always offer a tic tac to.

I don't dispute any of what you said and you're absolutely correct......who knows?

However, in States where Stand Your Ground is an individuals right to self protection, what happened before hand doesn't matter. The only thing the court was concerned with / the only thing the Jury could consider......was Zimmerman in fear for his life at the moment he pulled the trigger.

In this case, the Jury unanimously said yes.

[tesla69]

Originally Posted by Bytor Peltor

In this case, the Jury unanimously said yes.

I don't know if this has been addressed, but WBAI was saying last night there were only 6 jurors. I thought a jury, especially a murder trial, is 12 people. How did that happen?

i didn't watch the trial but my dad told me the prosecutor did shit.

Once a bunch of rich white republican get killed for stand your ground this will change.

[Bytor Peltor]

Originally Posted by tesla69

I don't know if this has been addressed, but WBAI was saying last night there were only 6 jurors. I thought a jury, especially a murder trial, is 12 people. How did that happen?

In the majority of states, a criminal trial uses a 12 member jury system. In those same states, civil trial systems uses six member jury's.

The State of Florida is one of the States that allow for a six member jury in criminal trials. It's my understanding this has to be mutually agreed upon between the two parties before the trial begins.

I read many legal experts thought the prosecution had the the six member jury "stacked" in their favor due to all the jury members being mothers.

Each side was represented during voir dire and the six women jury is what they came up with.

[Rob Instigator]

why did zimmerman gain 120 lbs before trial?

dude chunked up!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

why did zimmerman gain 120 lbs before trial?

dude chunked up!

That was the weight he was putting on to try to be tougher in prison, if he was getting his ass kicked by a 17 year old kid, only imagine how bad it would have went for him locked up without his precious gun

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

why did zimmerman gain 120 lbs before trial?

dude chunked up!

probably stress (high cortisol)

[Rob Instigator]

I am glad the internet, cellphones, digicams, and all that shit did not exist when Iw as 17. I'd probably just be getting released from prison, or a mental institution if they did.