[Rob Instigator]

Let me discusss......

I prefer rappers that do not double or triple track their vocals. If they do that (and a LOT of them do) that means that their MC skillz are fucking FAKE and they cannot spit their shit properly, thereby needing the multiple overdubs because their skillz are lacking. Future never double tracks his vocals (neither do Rae Sremm, Young Thug, or Rich Homie Quan all of whom I love)

I prefer rappers that rap the entire song through, no breaks, no sing-song bullshit, no melodic interludes dragging the song down. I have been listening to Future's ouvre and in almost every single song he releases under his own name, he raps the entire song, no dead air, no waste. It reminds me of Morrissey who rarely left a musical bit without some sort of vocalizing on it, which is awesome.

I LOVE music about drugs and degeneracy and drugs. I LOVE IT. I especially love cleverness and drugs, of which Future is loaded with. He raps about what I love to hear about. DRUGS, deranged mind-states, overwhelming near-OD's, pushing the mind to the limits of intoxication, then pulling your ass up to spit rhymes that make the rest of the field look like weak hobbled soft-asses.

I have yet to hear any track that Future is a guest on where Future's bit is not the best fucking thing on the track. He brings it like Bruce Springsteen.

Future can go from sick evil sounding shit like Wicked or Low Life (both of which have the most sac-rattling bass blasts as I drive in my car with that shit cranked up) to the most beautiful and pensive drug dream tracks like Percocet & Stripper Joint, or Perky's Calling, or Xanny Family, tracks which sound best at 3 AM when you have been hitting the dabs and the world is quiet.

Fuck Up Some Commas was the first track I heard and saw on Street Flava TV show here in Htown that made me go, "Fuck, I need to go to Louder's Hip Hop Cafe" and ask them fools what this TRAP shit is because Future's got me interested." I thank him for getting me into this insanity.

Visually, Future was the first of the hotlanta guys to care about his appearance in a cohesive styled way, so when you see him anywhere you know it is Future. Y Thug took this and ran with it.

I love that motherfucker. and yes, I think he is a hip hop genius.

[louder]

Originally Posted by Severian

Doesn't even touch DS2?!

Wow.

It's difficult to imagine how something could be so disappointing and uninspired that it "doesn't touch" the high water mark of disappointing anti-inspiration set by the modern king of disappointment and anti-inspiration.

For the record, Rob thinks Future is a genius.

Think about some of our past conversations about hip-hop, and what Rob has taken issue with, and let that sink in.

Rob Instigator thinks fucking Future is a "genius".

...

Sorry Rob, but you knew what you were doing when you said that

Well, I was disappointed with DS2 on my first listen too but it grew on me.

Also, keep in mind that my speakers weren't working properly and I couldn't find my earbuds. I feel like one definitely needs a good sound system to fully enjoy Future's music.

Since Rob liked EVOL, I think he's gonna like the new one as well.

[Rob Instigator]

I tell my friends who dont understand why I listen to this stuff, that the key is to have a boomin system. It si the same with metal music. The better the system the more you can hear all the pummeling. With Future's and all these rappers guys stuff, the bassline is HYPERcritical. Until you hear it on a good system, or in a car with good subwoofers, you will not understand.

It is night and day. Hearing some of these tracks on a TV or youtube without a good speaker makes you only hear the treble bits, and so the tracks sound repetitive, but if you can truly hear the magic these producers make with the bass lines, the full effect is achieved.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Let me discusss......

I prefer rappers that do not double or triple track their vocals. If they do that (and a LOT of them do) that means that their MC skillz are fucking FAKE and they cannot spit their shit properly, thereby needing the multiple overdubs because their skillz are lacking. Future never double tracks his vocals (neither do Rae Sremm, Young Thug, or Rich Homie Quan all of whom I love)

I prefer rappers that rap the entire song through, no breaks, no sing-song bullshit, no melodic interludes dragging the song down. I have been listening to Future's ouvre and in almost every single song he releases under his own name, he raps the entire song, no dead air, no waste. It reminds me of Morrissey who rarely left a musical bit without some sort of vocalizing on it, which is awesome.

I LOVE music about drugs and degeneracy and drugs. I LOVE IT. I especially love cleverness and drugs, of which Future is loaded with. He raps about what I love to hear about. DRUGS, deranged mind-states, overwhelming near-OD's, pushing the mind to the limits of intoxication, then pulling your ass up to spit rhymes that make the rest of the field look like weak hobbled soft-asses.

I have yet to hear any track that Future is a guest on where Future's bit is not the best fucking thing on the track. He brings it like Bruce Springsteen.

Future can go from sick evil sounding shit like Wicked or Low Life (both of which have the most sac-rattling bass blasts as I drive in my car with that shit cranked up) to the most beautiful and pensive drug dream tracks like Percocet & Stripper Joint, or Perky's Calling, or Xanny Family, tracks which sound best at 3 AM when you have been hitting the dabs and the world is quiet.

Fuck Up Some Commas was the first track I heard and saw on Street Flava TV show here in Htown that made me go, "Fuck, I need to go to Louder's Hip Hop Cafe" and ask them fools what this TRAP shit is because Future's got me interested." I thank him for getting me into this insanity.

Visually, Future was the first of the hotlanta guys to care about his appearance in a cohesive styled way, so when you see him anywhere you know it is Future. Y Thug took this and ran with it.

I love that motherfucker. and yes, I think he is a hip hop genius.

You and I have very different tastes in hip-hop.

Future does all kinds of sing-song shit though. None of his rapping is straigh rapping. None of it. I don't HATE the guy, but ... small doses for sure. Very small.

I like music that explores multiple sounds and ideas and musical archetypes at the same time. It's why I was drawn to Trube and Wu-Tang Clan before I let myself anywhere near the rest of the '90s rap flock. Both acts, but specifically Trube, used hip-hop, used "rapping" and production as an instrument, and blended the vocal and production elements in with other sources (Lou Reed samples, jazz, Kung Fu, etc.) to make really varied sonic landscapes where it is as more than just "bars."

I hate it when someone posts a video of a rapper with a bunch of fire emojis and exclamation points and it turns out to just be a dude rapping really fast over a redundant, boring, utilitarian beat. Fuck that shit. That's Eminem shit. "Rapping" doesn't impress me unless it's done in the context of a cohesive musical vision. So, Kendrick drops bars after bars, but his canvas is VAST, and it never just sounds like fucking words.

So that's why Kanye's my good standard. He can and has done so much with rap despite his limited vocal ability that he basically can't even be considered a rapper. He's a musical auteur.

Future is a mumble-rapper who makes he occasional banger. But that's not enough for me. It's not impressive. It doesn't hit me where I live. Doesn't make me think... about anything other than how much more interesting other rappers' music is.

I'm glad you found shit you like though. I feel like I have been a big part of this café since the beginning, and I cheered for Future when Honest came out (so you're welcome), but he hasn't released anything at or near that level since then.

Also, I'm obligated to take the puss out of you because you jump at any opportunity to make fun of Kanye, and his hair and his wife. Well, his music makes Future's look like tater tots. That's right... tater tots. His music makes Future's music look like something that isn't even music! Makes it look like the shit your high school cafeteria tries to convince you is food.

[Rob Instigator]

I love Kanye's "beard." I love all the Kardashians. More power to them.

Future does NOT do sing-song shit. You are thinking about Drake!

The only reason people denigrate Future and Young Thug and such as "mumble rappers" is because they are ignorant. They do not know EPMD. They do not understand why they "mumble." It is the lean and the dabs and the drugs they love, which I love. I HATED the Puff Daddy era of hip hop where the main drug was cocaine and the music reflected that vacuous bullshit high you get from coke.

Future is here to stay. Future Hendrix. Future is like the Butthole Surfers and Kanye is like Maroon 5.

[Rob Instigator]

I also love Lil Boat. That fool is having a good time...

[louder]

New Kodak black single, "Tunnel Vision" produced by Southside & Metro Boomin: https://youtube.com/watch?v=JzSUgOmP66Q

[Rob Instigator]

neat vid, decent track, but like I said above, I tune out when the rapper needs to multi-track his vocals. Learn your rhymes people!

[Rob Instigator]

I think it takes a life in the Dirty South to truly appreciate Future, Migos, Young Thug, Rae Sremm, etc. etc. They speak to the southern experience.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I love Kanye's "beard." I love all the Kardashians. More power to them.

Future does NOT do sing-song shit. You are thinking about Drake!

The only reason people denigrate Future and Young Thug and such as "mumble rappers" is because they are ignorant. They do not know EPMD. They do not understand why they "mumble." It is the lean and the dabs and the drugs they love, which I love. I HATED the Puff Daddy era of hip hop where the main drug was cocaine and the music reflected that vacuous bullshit high you get from coke.

Future is here to stay. Future Hendrix. Future is like the Butthole Surfers and Kanye is like Maroon 5.

How many rappers have ever been "here to stay?" How many rappers have stayed vital for more than a decade?

I'll tell you how many: 4 ...
Dr. Dre (even though I hate his stupid ass
A Tribe Called Quest (with an 18 year break, so they don't really count)
Kool Keith (has had more disasters than successes; is only vital relative to the average rapper)
Kanye West


How many have stayed commercially viable, critically praised, and maintained a massive fan base for more than a decade?

I'll tell you how many: 1...

Kanye West.

Kanye West is the (ugh, I hate this phrase) ... GOAT. He is. By any measure imaginable. He's the greatest rapper of all time even though he's far less skilled than many, many rappers.

Future being "here to stay" is a pipe dream. He's already post-peak, and a cult figure in hip-hop. Kanye West is a certainty. He could stop making music today... or last year.. or three years ago... or even in 2010, and he'd still be the most versatile, influential and important artist in any genre since MJ and Prince.

Calling him "maroon 5" just shows your ignorance to the music around you. Dumny. people who hate Maroon 5 (like me... I hate them), love "Heard 'me Say." People who hate Coldplay (I don't hate them but they're embarrassingly bad at times, even if they seem jovial and good natured enough) love "Homecoming."

Kanye West is the Beatles you taint. You don't have to like him, but insinuating that he's not "here to stay" is RIDICULOUS. He's already stayed longer than the rules of hip-hop allow, and left the most iconic discography since John, Paul, George and Ringo in his wake.

Again, of 8 albums, all of them have been in the top ten of the most respected critics' poll in music (Pazz and Jop). FOUR of them have been #1. More than any artist in history, except for Bob Dylan, who also has four, but had a 30 year head start and something like 25 albums.

These other jokers are battin' in the D league.

/FACTS

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I tell my friends who dont understand why I listen to this stuff, that the key is to have a boomin system. It si the same with metal music. The better the system the more you can hear all the pummeling. With Future's and all these rappers guys stuff, the bassline is HYPERcritical. Until you hear it on a good system, or in a car with good subwoofers, you will not understand.

It is night and day. Hearing some of these tracks on a TV or youtube without a good speaker makes you only hear the treble bits, and so the tracks sound repetitive, but if you can truly hear the magic these producers make with the bass lines, the full effect is achieved.

I'll take this under advisement. Seems like a fair enough point. I don't have a great sound setup. I have some good headphones, and some old badass speakers hooked up to my turntable, but I've never listened to Future in this environment. So I'll give it a shot.

But I have to say.... Kanye sounds bigger and better than life no matter what. You could be listening to "Power" through a tin can on a string and it would sound like the motherfucking apocalypse.

Maybe ... MAYBE if Frank Ocean or Kendrick makes nothing but classics for the next decade, experimenting with different styles each times with the same mind blowing results, MAYBE... one of those cats will have it on Kanye. I welcome that, man. Bring it! I'm all about good music.

But Future is not ever going to be comparable to Kanye. Except for the fact that he was obviously extremely influenced by 808s & Heartbreak. Future's just a dude making sounds with his mouth. Can not compete.

[Rob Instigator]

Re: Kanye

I have acquired his first 4 albums and am forcing myself to listen to them through 2 or 3 times each. I will let you know my thoughts if I make it through. So far so boring.

[Rob Instigator]

College Dropout is boring AF. Do not understand the praise. HATE the sing-along chorus shit. I guess it sounded "different" or something in 2004 compared to the fucking wretched shit that was hip hop at that time (just looked up the albums released in 2004. holy shit was it all suck). boring. two listens is enough for my lifetime..

Moving on to album # 2. Now I gotta find someone to give away this used copy of College Dropout to.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Re: Kanye

I have acquired his first 4 albums and am forcing myself to listen to them through 2 or 3 times each. I will let you know my thoughts if I make it through. So far so boring.

I thought you'd done this months ago.

Then again, you are the same Rob Insigator who has been reading ** "Book of the New Sun" for a YEAR now, and only made it to the second novella.

Anyway... I actually thought College Dropout was boring for a while too, except for "Jesus Walks" and a few other tracks. I have no idea why you're giving those albums a shot, when they're almost guaranteed to sound old and unimpressive to someone first hearing them in 2017, but whatever.

College Dropout was kind of like the Pablo Honey of hip-hop for me for the longest time. But it's actually a really great album all the way through. The skits on those albums reminds me that there IS actually a time and a place for skits, and there IS a way to include skits on an album without making the album less good. It's his least mature album by far, but that doesn't mean it isn't heads and tails above most of the rest of the shit that was dropping in '04.

Late Registration is where he really took flight. That album is not even in the same stratosphere as College Dropout. It's the most thorough defeat of the "sophomore slump" EVER. He went from making good, nicely produced, fresh and topical hip-hop (maybe the Hard Day's Night of his career) right into making his Rubber Soul in just one year. I also struggled with LR because it sounded so atypical, so ... almost antithetical to everything I believed about hip-hop. But in truth, it's probably my second or third favorite West album at this point. If you can listen to "Gone" without feeling the urge to dance, followed by the urge to drop your jaw at the beautiful simplicity of the instrumentation (note: the string interlude after Consequence's verse, just before Kanye's second starts, in particular), then you probably don't have a soul.

As for the others, well... I've liked Graduation and 808s & Heartbreak since I first heard them. Liked the latter before I had even committed to liking Kanye West! So... I don't know man. If you can't find ANYTHING to appreciate in any of those extremely different albums, then I really think the problem is you. Those are the albums from back when Kanye had the world fully by the balls. The average non-Kanye fan is, from my experience, likely to enjoy at least some of that material.

But if you listen and still hate, and still insist that "non-genius" Kanye -- the guy whose album taught "hip-hop genius" Future how to make a career is shit, then do the same thing with the 2010-2016 albums. For me?


** (Seriously bro, get moving on that one! Next time you want to put it down for a big tome on quantum mechanics or ornithology, just forge on through BOTNS instead. I guarantee there is more to satisfy your hunger for knowledge and thought in "Book of the New Sun" than in any dry navel-gazing book this side of the fucking Bible... which you love. BOTNS is, when taken as a whole (including its sequels and codes) VERY biblical in scope and subject matter, so READ THEM SHITS YOU DUMMY!)

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

College Dropout is boring AF. Do not understand the praise. HATE the sing-along chorus shit. I guess it sounded "different" or something in 2004 compared to the fucking wretched shit that was hip hop at that time (just looked up the albums released in 2004. holy shit was it all suck). boring. two listens is enough for my lifetime..

Moving on to album # 2. Now I gotta find someone to give away this used copy of College Dropout to.

"Jesus Walks," "Breathe in, Breathe Out," "Never Let Me Down," "Family Business," "School Spirit" all = great, solid, awesome songs.

But Late Registration is so much better. I actually think you'd like "We Major" ... it's a funeral dirge about smoking and dranking and being awesome with a New Orleans feel. Really Doe's chorus has a drawl to it you should enjoy. Also, Houston's own Paul Wall is on there. But if you want bars and bars over subwoofer bass, it's not there. The album is too indebted to chamber pop, to the Beatles, to Simon & Garfunkel, to George Martin.

There's singing on it!! And multiple styles are wrapped up with lyrical hip-hop in a blanket of live strings and piano keys to make a truly genre-transcending album.

You might just need your rap music to be much, much, much simpler and more straight-forward than anything Kanye's got going on.

Which is ok.

BUT... if you continue to rag on Kanye and troll any of my Kanye posts like it's your fucking job, I will continue to call all kinds of bullshit on you for worshiping his many derivatives.

[Rob Instigator]

"where I'm from the cokeslingers are the rock stars."

ha!

Kanye is an upper middle class kid raised in Chicago and China who was priviledged enough to attend art school then University when he felt art school was not cool. Come on...

Kanye's music is to Hip Hop what Radiohead is to rock, seems great to people who do not know much about the music, but derivative and played and BORING to anyone whose ears have actually been tickled by the avant garde.

I HATE SINGING ON RAP TRACKS. That shit ruined hip hop.

[Severian]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

"where I'm from the cokeslingers are the rock stars."

ha!

It's "where I'm from the dope boys is the rock stars." Educate yourself.

Kanye is an upper middle class kid raised in Chicago and China who was priviledged enough to attend art school then University when he felt art school was not cool. Come on...

First off, you really don't understand Kanye's whole thing. This is obvious now.

"I don't know I just wanted better for my kids
And I ain't sayin' we was from the projects
But every time I want it, layaway or a deposit
My Dad'll say "when you see clothes close ya eyelids
...
I don't know what he did for dough
but he would send me back to school with a new wardrobe"

Never claimed to be Thug Life, but he did grow up on the Chicago's south side. Went to school there, lived there, tried to thrive there... one doesn't live and work and go to schoo in the south side of Chicago if one is "upper middle class." My mother was a tenured college professor and we weren't "upper middle class." You've either never been to Chicago, or you have a faulty perception of class, especially with respect to black people in big cities in America.

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Kanye's music is to Hip Hop what Radiohead is to rock, seems great to people who do not know much about the music, but derivative and played and BORING to anyone whose ears have actually been tickled by the avant garde.

Sure about Radiohead comparison. Sure. If only because no other rock shaken anything up in a platinum-selling kind of way in this time period. Radiohead has largely stuck to the same formula, though, so again, THE BEATLES are a much better referenc point.

But derivative? Are you on Thorazine again? He reps No ID and Dilla, and Tribe and the Beatles and MJ all influenced him in ways he'll readily admit. Who exactly is Kanye derivative of? Every rapper you like is derivative of Kanye, but who is HE derivative of? Who's done what he's done before to the extent that he can be considered a mimic?

Also, my ears have been "tickled by the avant-garde" (barf) -- I live on a Sonic Youth board. I'm into weirder shit than you are, and MOST of the music I love is actually far from the mainstream. I also know hip-hop. So, that whole last thing your said? Total and complete bullshit.

I'm not even sure you have a firm grasp of what avant-garde means. It's hard for me to think of a better term to DESCRIBE Kanye in the context of hip-hop. He always takes chances and does weird ass shit. He doesn't mumble over someone else's beats like a bitch.
[/quote]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

I HATE SINGING ON RAP TRACKS. That shit ruined hip hop.

So you don't like Tribe then. You don't like Wu-Tang. You can't like "Nothin but a G Thang," you don't like FUTURE, because what that dude does is not really rapping. It's slurred singing. FUTURE SINGS, YOU CLOWN.

Oh, you also don't like Outkast.

You only like rapping. Which means you're REALLY easy to please and REALLY easy to disappoint. If it's not rapping, disappointed. If there's MORE than rapping, didappointed.

Kanye's above your rap processing skills bro. Stick to the same redundant shit artists who make the same song a hundred times over five years and then fade into memory.

I'm disappointed in your ass.

[h8kurdt]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

Re: Kanye

I have acquired his first 4 albums and am forcing myself to listen to them through 2 or 3 times each. I will let you know my thoughts if I make it through. So far so boring.

Well you were going in with the wrong mind frame for a start. If you tell yourself you're gonna hate it before you've even started guess what? You're gonna hate it.

[Rob Instigator]

I am forcing myself as a favor to Sev who is so forceful in his love for Kanye that I feel the need to re-examine my take on his music. I have forced myself to watch and listen and read a ton of shit that I ended up loving. pop psych ain't real you know. Value is recognized no matter the initial impetus or mindstate approaching it.

I just find his beats tame, bland, and his raps irrelevant so far. let me get to the more "mature" works....

[louder]

Is this Future? I can't tell: