[pbradley]

While I respect and support the idea of responsible government spending, I don't believe small government is right the answer to our situation. Adopting a small government in an age where the corporation is growing to transnational heights is reckless. Even today, globalization has made corporations responsible, in many instances, for representing the US foreign policy, often with results being human rights violations. Instead of terrorist attacks by religious fanatics, we'll get terrorist attacks from freedom fighting nationals who construe the corporation for the nation.

Also the idea of an absolutely free market that is somehow independent of social realities is a myth. For there to be a truly free market, the government should do its part in leveling the starting field for a free market to be the equally beneficial system that it is designed to be instead of the continuing exploitation of social inequalities that it is.

[MellySingsDoom]

Once this whole recession thing is over, I guarantee that "free markets" will be ooh'd and aah'd over again, even though its been proved by recent events that it simply does not work. Bah.

[pbradley]

Most people who believe in a modern free market are typically raised well off and assume that those who are poor are so because they entered the market as middle wage individuals but through laziness or incompetence fell into debt (i.e. its their ass). But poverty is in the majority of cases inherited. To that they say "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" when they themselves never had to. And of course they are often conveniently narrow sighted about how the government help and taxer payer dollars has helped them in say their education or even, suppose, how their family originally came into money through the New Deal. The only time a market is free is when the equally players involved enough to be able to set a balanced competition so that there is no favoritism within the system but we don't have that and that leads to recessions.

[Alex's Trip]

Can someone tell me how to knock some sense into the girl who thinks Jesus would be a Republican because the Bible doesn't say that the government should be responsible for helping the poor?

I said: "I think Jesus would have been a socialist. At least a democrat. "
She said:

Originally Posted by her

Oh my gosh Alex. Stop using Jesus against Christians. You don't even understand what the bible says about sin nature. Essentially, socialism will NEVER EVER work according to the bible because it is human nature to be greedy and selfish. JESUS WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN A SOCIALIST. Socialism assumes that people are generally good, and the Bible doesn't believe that, so stop trying to say what Jesus wouldn't do and go read a Bible. PLEASE. Just read it one time through. Every claim you keep saying about Christianity will be invalidated.

Originally Posted by me

I definitely disagree. And I am not using Jesus against Christians. I think socialism is a very christian thing in that it helps all people of a nation. Socialism doesn't assume everyone is good. It sets up institutions that help everyone because charity work is no where near substantial enough to improve the quality of life of a nation. You say that the Bible says that Socialism will "NEVER WORK" despite the fact that nations like France and Switzerland prove the exact opposite. I'll take empirical evidence over the Bible's conjectures any day.

If everyone is greedy by sinful nature, it would make sense to set up a government institution (socialism) that actually fought against that, whereas ideologically a republican government doesn't do that at all. It relies on trickle down effects that have been proven not to work (Reagan years where most of our current debt was accumulated), and it only widens the gap of the rich and the poor. Do you realize that 90% of the nations wealth is held by 1% of the population? Republican economics only worsens that.

Didn't Jesus say 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven?' To vote republican is to diametrically oppose that ideal. You said that "no point in my Bible does it say that the government should take care of it." but to me it is a false step in logic to allow something that the Bible doesn't say overrule something that Bible does say when deciding to vote. The Bible doesn't say how to vote in government on anything! Does it? But by that logic, shouldn't your political views be entirely independent of your religious views? I don't understand how you can pick and choose what you carry over from your religion to politics.
It is completely and absolutely paradoxical to me, and I don't know if any amount of explanation will ever make sense.

Again, I wasn't using Jesus against Christians. I was using him in Utilitarianism, Democratic ideals, and the good of all human beings of a single nation in the most effective way: government.

Originally Posted by her

The odds of history for socialism and communism don't look as bright to me.
You neglect to mention countries devastated by socialism, such as Russia, or countries suffering, such as China.
And I don't agree that socialism is working out wonderfully for places like France. Actually, based on a google search, there's a massive disapproval rate of the government there, and many people have suffered the consequences of policies like the institution of the 35-hour work week, which made it extremely hard for businesses and employees to make ends meet.

Your theory that socialism takes away greed doesn't fly with me. You missed one VERY important factor: the people at the top. You really think a socialist government has EVER just redistributed wealth where it needs to be without taking anything for themselves? Spending for their own benefit, or for the benefits of certain organizations that they want to prosper? A socialist government is equally as corrupt as a democratic government, except they have more reign to go against the wishes of the people.

And the "Sell all your goods and give it to the poor" thing in the Bible is Jesus talking to a very wealthy man who thought he wanted to follow him, but changed his mind after Jesus said those words. Jesus was using that rich man as an example of how hard it is for some people to become Christians because of greed, or pride, or selfishness. It was not a command from heaven to sell everything you have and give it to the poor, if you read the context.

OBVIOUSLY the difference between France and Switzerland and Russia and China is fascism. Additionally, she doesn't seem to understand how socialism and democracy are apples and oranges, one being an economic system, the other a form of representative government. BLAH BLAH BLAH, I get tired of arguing with her.

[davenotdead]

Jesus would vote for Reagan

[Rob Instigator]

jesus would have loved sonic youth.

[davenotdead]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

jesus would have loved sonic youth.

he probably would jump up on stage just to touch Lee whenever he plays Eric's Trip, and then never wash that hand again. and then he'd be all : "see this Lee Ranaldo guy? yeah, i made him"

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Alex's Trip

Can someone tell me how to knock some sense into the girl who thinks Jesus would be a Republican because the Bible doesn't say that the government should be responsible for helping the poor?

I said: "I think Jesus would have been a socialist. At least a democrat. "
She said:

where did they assume jesus would be a republican?

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

jesus would have loved sonic youth.

Burnin' eyes seek jesus comin
Jesus comes to pave the way

[Alex's Trip]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

where did they assume jesus would be a republican?



Burnin' eyes seek jesus comin
Jesus comes to pave the way

She assumed it in speech, not through text that I can copy and paste to you. Furthermore, there was a quotation in the post above that was from Facebook, whereas everything else was on Myspace...

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Alex's Trip

She assumed it in speech, not through text that I can copy and paste to you. Furthermore, there was a quotation in the post above that was from Facebook, whereas everything else was on Myspace...

unfortunately for Jesus everyone projects their own imaginary selves onto their vision of Jesus.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Alex's Trip

Can someone tell me how to knock some sense into the girl who thinks Jesus would be a Republican because the Bible doesn't say that the government should be responsible for helping the poor?

I said: "I think Jesus would have been a socialist. At least a democrat. "
She said:

Matthew 19:16-26

16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
18 He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said,"You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness.
19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

This passage is also present in Mark 10:17-27 and Luke 18:18-27. There are more instances. She evidently has read the Bible if she believes that Christians should be responsible for the poor.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Alex's Trip

OBVIOUSLY the difference between France and Switzerland and Russia and China is fascism. Additionally, she doesn't seem to understand how socialism and democracy are apples and oranges, one being an economic system, the other a form of representative government. BLAH BLAH BLAH, I get tired of arguing with her.

She evidently thinks "helping the poor = socialism" and "anything not Republicanism (i.e. Democratism) = socialism."

Both are false analogies.

EDIT: also I don't believe Jesus would be a socialist considering Matthew 22:21 "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s"

Jesus is apolitical, if not anarchistic. For Jesus, following the word of God faithfully would make irrelevant the need of following the wor of men.

[Kylerobert]

Originally Posted by pbradley

While I respect and support the idea of responsible spending in the government, I don't believe small government is right the answer to our situation. Adopting a small government in an age where the corporation is growing to transnational heights is reckless. Even today, globalization has made corporations responsible in many instances of representing the US foreign policy, often with results being human rights violations. Instead of terrorist takes against religious fanatics, we'll get terrorist attacks from freedom fighting nationals know construe corporation for nation.

Also the idea of an absolutely free market that is somehow independent of social realities is a myth. For there to be a truly free market, the government should do its part in equalizing the starting field for a free market to be the equally beneficial system that it is designed to be instead of the continuing exploitation of social inequalities that it is.

Thank you for a respectful and intelligent response. I respect your stance.

[cryptowonderdruginvogue]

 

[tesla69]

Originally Posted by pbradley

Jesus is apolitical, if not anarchistic. For Jesus, following the word of God faithfully would make irrelevant the need of following the wor of men.

I dunno, the story of Jesus has been rewritten several times by powerful empires for their own ends (continues today i.e., Dominionists), the truth may be he was part of some radical spiritual revolutionaries against the Romans, and had to flee into the desert. Everyone around Jesus was Hebrew, including Jesus, but somehow the Romans were able to pervert the story so that it was all the Jews fault, and not in fact the Romans who nailed him up - and they're so clever the romans, who nailed jesus and killed him, now are the spiritual leaders/enforcers of christianity.

[MellySingsDoom]

Originally Posted by cryptowonderdruginvogue

 

It's YO-BAMA ballin' outta control.

[Sonic Youth 37]

Originally Posted by cryptowonderdruginvogue

 

Obama makes it rain.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by tesla69

I dunno, the story of Jesus has been rewritten several times by powerful empires for their own ends (continues today i.e., Dominionists), the truth may be he was part of some radical spiritual revolutionaries against the Romans, and had to flee into the desert. Everyone around Jesus was Hebrew, including Jesus, but somehow the Romans were able to pervert the story so that it was all the Jews fault, and not in fact the Romans who nailed him up - and they're so clever the romans, who nailed jesus and killed him, now are the spiritual leaders/enforcers of christianity.

At this point in time you have to accept the truth as it is contained and preserved, because outside of the Bible, Jesus does not exist. the handful of extra-biblical historical sources are perhaps even more open to corrupt than the bible, because unlike gospel accounts which have been very accuratley preserved and proven so under immense scrutiny, writings by Josephus and Thallus and Tactis and even the mention in the Talmud of Jesus are less accepted as historical fact and are more open to have been altered, especially by those who have an agenda to add "proof" to faith, something which is impossible. Jesus is a character of faith, and as a historical figure is virtually possible to identify truly. This is why he became a religion and not socio-political movement, as it is a declaration of faith, not reason.

[greedrex]

Originally Posted by davenotdead

he probably would jump up on stage just to touch Lee whenever he plays Eric's Trip, and then never wash that hand again. and then he'd be all : "see this Lee Ranaldo guy? yeah, i made him"

he he

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth 37

Obama makes it rain.

Recognition, Restoration, Reparation,

Watch them all fall down.
Revolution, the only solution,
The armed response of an entire nation,

Revolution, the only solution,
We've taken all your shit, now it's time for restitution.