[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

What the fuck? Why don't they just burn those god-awful camps to the fucking ground and forget about all this mess in the first place. I don't understand the morbid curiosity of keeping these fucking horrible places alive as disneylandesque memorials..

 

For Jews, let that shit go.. for the rest of us, why would we bother?

Personally, I think they leave the camps up as bragging. I think in Germany the camps stay up just like in the South Confederate flags still fly high (to shame!!)...

The Germans want the whole world to forever remember and brag about one of the worst nightmares in human history..

we should fuck those Nazis out of their scumbag heritage and burn that shit down... fe real!

[jon boy]

having actually been to auschwitz and also having worked as a tour guide at sachsenhausen near berlin i can chategorically state that in no way are these places 'disneylandesque memorials'. they are kept as poinent reminders that the holocaust did very much happen and that no one should ever forget that. maybe you need to get over yourself before making anymore flippant comments regarding the deaths of millions of people.

[akprodr]

Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.

Personally, I'd just as soon not repeat this part of history.

[Glice]

We should forget Auschwitz. And slavery. And the potato famine. And the Armenian genocide. And Cambodia. And the crusades. Sierra Leone, DRC, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Turkmenistan, Georgia, Rhodesia - forget about it all. Because it's really important that people get over themselves. Heads down everyone, history doesn't matter. Stiff upper lip and that. We don't need to remember, we can just keep our heads down and maybe history - living history - will cease to matter.

The sign was stolen for the metal, which is worth a lot of money.

[Satan]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

disneylandesque memorials..

walt disney was a fascist

[Glice]

Was he a fascist? I thought he was just anti-semitic.

[Glice]

'Just anti-semitic' seems like a preposterous sentence.

[Satan]

something to that effect.

[davenotdead]

did anyone see that recent walt disney doc? it looked interesting, but i can't be sure

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by akprodr

Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.

Personally, I'd just as soon not repeat this part of history.

I never said lets forget about history, how could we forget about such a horrendous situation as the Holocaust and WWII?

BUT, there is thin line between commemoration and commercialization. As a professionally trained historian, you can remember history without necessarily preserving the worst aspects of our humanity for the world to gawk and open-mouthed..

again, I say it, the people who perpetuate these camps are bragging, even if inadvertantly, and I will pray a thanksgiving prayer the day an arsonist burns them to the ground the way they tried to get the Hollywood sign last year...

[Glice]

How is it 'bragging' to lay bare the architecture of what amount to the 20th-century's epitome of despair? I'm not saying there weren't equal or possibly worse tragedies, but you're on astonishingly thin ice to say that it's 'bragging'.

[jon boy]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

I never said lets forget about history, how could we forget about such a horrendous situation as the Holocaust and WWII?

BUT, there is thin line between commemoration and commercialization. As a professionally trained historian, you can remember history without necessarily preserving the worst aspects of our humanity for the world to gawk and open-mouthed..

again, I say it, the people who perpetuate these camps are bragging, even if inadvertantly, and I will pray a thanksgiving prayer the day an arsonist burns them to the ground the way they tried to get the Hollywood sign last year...

i suggest you go to one of those places, i worked in one as a tour guide so take it from me there is no 'bragging' and they are in no way commercialised. many of them are free admition. i really dont think that you know what your talking about here. two people tried to burn the remaining parts of sachsenhausen down in the 80's. i think there is something very wrong if you would rejoice at the burning down of a museum to the holocaust.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Glice

How is it 'bragging' to lay bare the architecture of what amount to the 20th-century's epitome of despair? I'm not saying there weren't equal or possibly worse tragedies, but you're on astonishingly thin ice to say that it's 'bragging'.

It is bragging in the same sense that the Confederate flag as the state flag of three southern states is bragging. The DeathCamps are a powerful visible symbol of the merciless power that the Nazis exercised..

to leave them is the same as leaving the Pantheon in Rome, it is a visual reminder of the achievements of the previous empires, and in this instance, the achievement is nothing to keep around. To keep the buildings alive and standing is to keep the Nazis alive..

as a tribute to the ELEVEN MILLION people who perished in those camps, they should be burned and leveled to the ground, and a lovely cemetery put up in its place. I have seen several holocaust memorials that perfectly capture this feeling, and so honestly, I think leaving the camps up is redundent and ineffective.. The american sponsers and the jews who fund these things to keep open want to give the Germans an eternal black eye, but if you ask me, I think those whose grandparents and parents in Germany perpetuated this crime, can't help but look back with a bit of accomplishment, just as today southerners look back to the Confederacy as some kind of glory days..

Slave castles and concentration camps have no purpose once you rid yourself of slavery and genocide. They simply extend the wound, like wearing a band-aid to visibly exaggerate and show off a scar..

In this instance, I feel that the Germans leave these camps up the way a soldier or a fighter BRAGS about his battle scars, and Jews and Poles, Slavs and Czechs, (5 million NONJEWS were also killed, its not just a jewish thing but a European thing) keep picking at the scab..

Lets actually HEAL these wounds. NEVER forget, but please, remember with taste and dignity.

[ni'k]

why do westerners need reminders that genocide is wrong? oh wait i'm sorry, nazi genocide was wrong, not our own, which is still ongoing, we just don't speak of it. man i knew people in school who visited there and came back with their humanist horror stories that somehow use the genocide at auschwitz as a justification for the genocide that was world war 2. as if it takes one to stop one. i agree with suchfriends about burning it down.

[jon boy]

so by your understanding anything like that should be levelled so the ppyramids should be flattened too huh? your argument is is flawed to say the least but i guess thats what i excpect from someone who says that aushwitz should be torn down and ends that sentence 'fe real'.

once again i say you should go to one of them and then say the same thing. idiot.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by ni'k

why do westerners need reminders that genocide is wrong? oh wait i'm sorry, nazi genocide was wrong, not our own, which is still ongoing, we just don't speak of it. man i knew people in school who visited there and came back with their humanist horror stories that somehow use the genocide at auschwitz as a justification for the genocide that was world war 2. as if it takes one to stop one. i agree with suchfriends about burning it down.

thank you. ni'k, I would like to say that it has been very refreshing to reason with you on the last couple of threads.. very substantial, I miss that about the internet. All the intellectual and theological boards I used to reason on are all out-of-commission, so I am left here, one of Sonic Youth Gossip's lone resident Historical Theologans

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by jon boy

so by your understanding anything like that should be levelled so the ppyramids should be flattened too huh? your argument is is flawed to say the least but i guess thats what i excpect from someone who says that aushwitz should be torn down and ends that sentence 'fe real'.

once again i say you should go to one of them and then say the same thing. idiot.

stop being rude, I never was rude to anyone on this thread. This is a serious, no joke thing! If those who liberated themselves from slavery in Egypt burned down the pyramids like those who liberated themselves from the slavery of Moses's Judaica didn't bother to rebuild Herod's Temple, would we honestly be so upset?

Perhaps the pyramids are equally part of this process of bragging rights, did you ever stop to think that the pyramids are a central theme in world history because those victors who write history and shape the present wanted to brag as much as the Nazis or Confederates do today? After all, those majestic pyramids were half buried in sand until Napoleon's expedition began to uncover them.. maybe the desert was trying to bury the blackeyes of the past the same way we should burn those camps?

Today, big buildings in downtown skylines are the pyramids and camps of the past, the tangible creations, the visible and operative symbols of the greedy, power-hungry corporations who perpetuate war, slavery and suffering across the world.. and when our civilization inevitable collapses, will our future remember the truth about how and what built all those lovely buildings or will they get a glimpse of the suffering that built them and feel as repulsed as I do by the camps?

"Assuredly I say to you, not one of these beautiful stones shall be left standing on another!"

To answer your rhetorical question, I WOULDN T DARE enter such an evil and cursed ground as Auschwitz, its not my business to fuck with my heart, just remember that tragedy is hard enough, let alone to go attempt to experience it directly..

go on a pilgrimage to a holy city, go on vacation of a tourist trap, but stay the fuck out of the Holocaust, it is fire, and fire is not partial to them even that burn fire, seen?
fuck it, burn the pyramids down too then!

[Glice]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

It is bragging in the same sense that the Confederate flag as the state flag of three southern states is bragging. The DeathCamps are a powerful visible symbol of the merciless power that the Nazis exercised..

to leave them is the same as leaving the Pantheon in Rome, it is a visual reminder of the achievements of the previous empires, and in this instance, the achievement is nothing to keep around. To keep the buildings alive and standing is to keep the Nazis alive..

as a tribute to the ELEVEN MILLION people who perished in those camps, they should be burned and leveled to the ground, and a lovely cemetery put up in its place. I have seen several holocaust memorials that perfectly capture this feeling, and so honestly, I think leaving the camps up is redundent and ineffective.. The american sponsers and the jews who fund these things to keep open want to give the Germans an eternal black eye, but if you ask me, I think those whose grandparents and parents in Germany perpetuated this crime, can't help but look back with a bit of accomplishment, just as today southerners look back to the Confederacy as some kind of glory days..

Slave castles and concentration camps have no purpose once you rid yourself of slavery and genocide. They simply extend the wound, like wearing a band-aid to visibly exaggerate and show off a scar..

In this instance, I feel that the Germans leave these camps up the way a soldier or a fighter BRAGS about his battle scars, and Jews and Poles, Slavs and Czechs, (5 million NONJEWS were also killed, its not just a jewish thing but a European thing) keep picking at the scab..

Lets actually HEAL these wounds. NEVER forget, but please, remember with taste and dignity.

The Confederate flag is re-appropriated as an atavistic symbol of 'better times'. The thrust towards Arcadia, the idealised past, or the Garden of Eden, a time of innocence, is a common subterfuge in society. I think it's larger than nostalgia, which is a relatively modern construction. The point of the Auschwitz (and other) memorials is precisely the opposite - it's there to remind people that these places are miserable holes. I've never heard of anyone re-appropriating Auschwitz as a site of glory. What's most common in neo-Nazism, ultra-conservativism and racist far-right movements is precisely the opposite - holocaust denial, or revisionism. The concentration camp memorials stand precisely and exactly in opposition to the analogy you've drawn. You may have made a mis-analogy, but I maintain you're on exceptionally thin ice. You might have a point if you proposed pulling down the Reichstag, or the White House, or Red Square, or the Houses of Parliament [etc].

Do you propose that the remaining bits of the Berlin wall be torn down, or should they stand as a monument to the previously-divided Germany? I sometimes wonder if there's such a radically different feeling about history in the USA precisely because it has very little of it, and a tendency to pull things down rather than leaving them to fester (I'm not, of course, referring to the slums and social housing deprivation, which is an entirely different matter). As you probably know, we all live in castles with moats with islands with more castles on over here. Can't move for bloody history.

You should see the memorial to the war dead in St Petersburg. Genuinely, terrifyingly sublime. Great hills of corpses.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

thank you. ni'k, I would like to say that it has been very refreshing to reason with you on the last couple of threads.. very substantial, I miss that about the internet. All the intellectual and theological boards I used to reason on are all out-of-commission, so I am left here, one of Sonic Youth Gossip's lone resident Historical Theologans

You can't be 'one of' and 'lone'; first, because it's syntactically poor form (a crime a true historian would never commit). Second, because I qualify as well.

[jon boy]

having lived in germany for a number of years and having visited poland many many times i have never seen any bragging in relation to the holocaust. germans are not felt to be victimised in relation to the holocaust.

so are we to tear down the railroads that built america becuase they could be seen as bragging about slave labour. sitting in your home and commenting on a place you have never been to and seemingly know nothing about are rude.