[demonrail666]

Is the Left now a spent force within mainstream politics? I don't mean any kind of Left represented by New Labour or even Obama but a socialist Left. Or should we all just learn to love capitalism and be done with it?

[pbradley]

I can never truly love capitalism, even in high school I was critical of 'false consciousness' before I knew the name for it. I think this was partially because this was when Orange County was commercially growing so fast that values other than egocentric consumerism felt left behind. I would watch in amazement as neoconservative entrepreneurs tore down orange trees for cookie-cutter housing and then return to their church and decry the amoralism of their country at the hands of progressives.

[phoenix]

people are not quite intelligent enough on the whole for any form of democratic politics to ever work, long term.

capitolism will probably fund the extremely small % in an elite private sector, who will pay for scientific left types to get them the fuck off of this planet, or safely away from the dying panicing masses. elite private sector will then rule a fascist regieme over lowly science nerds, until perhaps they decide to use their brains to rid themselves of the ecconomic elites(and guilt) that enabled them to escape the horrifying fate of the rest of the population.

honestly.

[knox]

it really depends on what you mean by "work" when you say a system works or doesn't.

[knox]

sorry i didn't read the part about paying left wing scientists to get out of this planet. i'll pay in installments.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by knox

it really depends on what you mean by "work" when you say a system works or doesn't.

true. depends on who you are, I suppose.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by phoenix

people are not quite intelligent enough on the whole for any form of democratic politics to ever work, long term.

I would say that's precisely the basis on which democracy functions - not by everyone making a rational choice based on personal understanding, but by the fear of the 'other' (in this case, the presumed idiocy of the masses) making a bad decision. For me, ostensibly on the left (and in Whitehall terms, centre-left by default of the Conservative party), my voting will likely be defined not by a rational decision, but by a fear of what my 'other' will vote for.

Democracy shouldn't work 'long-term' - that's never what it sets out to do. Long-term suggests a 'final solution' - that particular narrative belongs to the margins. In fact, I'd probably say that the notion of a final solution is now more common to the hard-left that seeks some Communist or Socialist ideal that's analogous to Theology's idea of 'heaven'. As it stands in Britain, and has done for a long time, the most pragmatic, non- (and often anti-) ideological parties are all on the right. Thatcher may have knocked this idea, but the Tories are still the party of moving based on 'what needs to be done right now' rather than 'how can we move towards the ideal-case scenario'.

I think capitalism is much more diffuse, and diverse, than merely serving the ends of the 'ruling classes'. That form of leftist dialogue (itself horribly outmoded in the late-20th and early-21st century left thinkers and politicians) is inadequate to explain political dynamics as we live today. That is, capitalism serves the 'underclasses' with shiny things as much as it affords ivory backscratchers for the 'élite'.

Originally Posted by demonrail666

Is the Left now a spent force within mainstream politics? I don't mean any kind of Left represented by New Labour or even Obama but a socialist Left. Or should we all just learn to love capitalism and be done with it?

The left is not a spent force; otherwise you wouldn't be asking the question. It's only at the extremes of leftist thought that 'we' would seek to overthrow capitalism; which is to say, the more 'centrist' or middle-leftism today should act to curb vulgar capitalism. I'm not wholly approving, but I think things like organic foods, fair trade and the carbon footprint movements within food show that the left can and does still work towards limiting capitalism. If it weren't for certain 'pop-anti-capitalism' (No Logo, Supersize Me etc) we wouldn't see McDonalds (in this country) making these paltry gestures towards 'eating healthily'. While I'm pretty convinced that the pop-anti-capitalism is an inadequate response to the situation, globally, as it stands, I do think they show that the left can still galvanise public opinion and affect changes to society.

It'll be interesting to see how Obama gets on with his healthcare reforms - again, this isn't the most striking leftist change that could potentially take place, but it does at least illustrate that the left, or leftist ideas (if we demarcate Obama's Democratic's 'leftism' more broadly), is still in action and capable of curbing vulgar capitalism.

However. I think Herr Rail is talking more broadly than Anglo-American politics; the international situation is a much more troublesome beast. And. I think he's talking about something more subtle than what I'm saying.

[knox]

and what glice said.

ideally, democracy is the non-final solution. democracy doesn't 'work' because if it does, it's not democracy.

as for a powerful minority ruling all, has it ever been different?

when people say people are too stupid to make decisions, i think what they really mean is people don't have enough unbiased information, which applies to us all.

real relevant truths about practical things are the hardest things to obtain.

something like that, i'm just tired now.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by pbradley

I can never truly love capitalism, even in high school I was critical of 'false consciousness' the name for it. I think this was partially because this was when Orange County was commercially growing so fast that values other than egocentric consumerism felt left behind. I would watch in amazement as neoconservative entrepreneurs tore down orange trees for cookie-cutter housing and then return to their church and decry the amoralism of their country at the hands of progressives.

I don't think capitalism expects you to love it; it's not God. It expects you to tolerate it, and will mostly leave you to your own devices. It's not the serpent of the garden of Eden; it's more like those ghosts in Super Mario 3 that don't do anything if you're looking at them, but go for your back when you're not looking.

WOW that's a shit simile.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by knox

when people say people are too stupid to make decisions, i think what they really mean is people don't have enough unbiased information, which applies to us all.

Yeah! And it's precisely this mud-slinging, the idea that 'someone else doesn't have the real information, which propagates to all areas of the political spectrum (or spectra if you're feeling fancy) and causes small-p politics to dissolve into a pissing competition. I'm not saying I have the solution for that, but I'm pretty certain that it doesn't help matters.

[pbradley]

Originally Posted by Glice

I don't think capitalism expects you to love it; it's not God. It expects you to tolerate it, and will mostly leave you to your own devices. It's not the serpent of the garden of Eden; it's more like those ghosts in Super Mario 3 that don't do anything if you're looking at them, but go for your back when you're not looking.

WOW that's a shit simile.

I don't know, I think capitalism is quite capable of going for your jugular when you're staring it right in the eyes. I've been unemployed for more than a year, if that's what you mean by 'leaving you to your own devices' than I can hardly disagree but I'm certainly restricted from the public sphere of other people's devices. Does a man without answers necessarily tolerate the received wisdom?

Is the hesitation to be tempered into a revolutionary the same as tolerance?

Too much black and white.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by pbradley

I don't know, I think capitalism is quite capable of going for your jugular when you're staring it right in the eyes. I've been unemployed for more than a year, if that's what you mean by 'leaving you to your own devices' than I can hardly disagree but I'm certainly restricted from the public sphere of other people's devices. Does a man without answers necessarily tolerate the received wisdom?

Is the hesitation to be tempered into a revolutionary the same as tolerance?

Too much black and white.

Fair points all. I was talking of the general context of capitalism - obviously, in your current situation you're probably crying like Christ at Calvary. And it's always to the most destitute (in which, given you're on the internet, I'm not including you) to which capitalism is most cruel - and yet, even the most destitute tend to cling to it like shipwreck bracken.

Ah, he's in a florid mood. Good for him.

[RanaldoNecro]

I think that each country varies with their own left. I find it disheartening that in the USA socialism is always decried so heavily.

Socialism has many forms. In Europe I believe it to take the form of brotherhood. I find it very distressing that Americans just don't really seem helpful. When I travel there and people don't help each other on the highway or whatever is rotten. And worse that people measure your value in terms of dollars.

As a Canadian and someone who has roots in Europe, I only wish to America that people discover values instead of value of materialism.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Capitalism is hindering us and keeping us from true freedom.

We have the resources to power the country completely on renewable energy, cutting back the costs of running this country immensely and improve the standard of living for all people.

The rich aim to slow that process out of some kind of disgusting view of themselves as superior beings or something.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

I think inherently though in one way or another the world will always be fucked up in equal amounts.

My way of rebellion against capitalism I think would be to aim to become more and more self sufficient. Saving up for solar paneling, making more of my own stuff and buying less manufactured goods. Try to go more and more off the grid so to speak.

[knox]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Capitalism is hindering us and keeping us from true freedom.

We have the resources to power the country completely on renewable energy, cutting back the costs of running this country immensely and improve the standard of living for all people.

The rich aim to slow that process out of some kind of disgusting view of themselves as superior beings or something.

i don't see how it is capitalism doing all that. i don't see why capitalism doesn't want renewable energy. it's not capitalism, it's people.

[knox]

but i wonder for a moment, i think capitalism in america probably means something other than MY idea of capitalism.

however, it can't be capitalism that's evil, it's certainly people, and no system would change that.

personally, i'd prefer to live in a system where at least i got some hope or loophole to try and overcome or expose that evil, insignificant as it could be, i could at least hope, it's better than nothing.

let's face that people and selfish and corrupted with power. it's slightly better to have that power in the hands of a few giant corporations that we could try and regulate and fail, than ONE institution that decides all.

[Green_mind]

I think we'll gradually see more and more 'pop-anti-capitalism' (never heard of that before) action for renewable energy industries to come, it's a field still in it's infancy I believe.

[knox]

renewable energy industries are still capitalist industries.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Glice

Democracy shouldn't work 'long-term' - that's never what it sets out to do.

Sorry, my (idealistic) views sit somewhere between socialist commie, and fascism ruled by the kind of person who does not exist. So by 'work long term' I really mean that I find it kind of ridiculous and not a solution to anything other than money pilfering and time wasting by people with not much better to do than pretend they give a fuck.

Politics is such a boring discussion for its own sake. It's sometimes nice with tea and cake, though.