oh, right.

yeah take a hot bath or something lol.

Why are they wrong?

Excuse for laziness

:confused: - either you're saying "eh, that's a good excuse", or you're calling me lazy. If it's the former, thank you; if it's the latter, :fuckyou:.

If you are so confident you can school me but say you can't be bothered i don't see what is controversial about being called lazy.

All I'm doing is asking for people to provide a response to those feminists that is either well reasoned or backed up by some kind of factual information.

gender, as assigned by our genetic code, is fluid and has always been. 1 in 1000 kids are born with some form of hermaphroditism, and 99% of them are either operated on as babies or just raised as a single sex.

Many are born with NO sexual organs or characteristics.

the idea of "male" and female" as the only polar opposites that truly exist is fucking dumb and owes its existence to the fucking dumb all or nothing world created by origanized religions of the past 2000 years. In countries where they had civilization and religion before monotheism all sexual characteristics are usually accepted and understood.

sexual preference is a completely different thing to gender, and works on a bell curve, not an either/or dichotomy.

right, gender is not reducible to chromosomes, and while chromosomes are extremely important, it’s simplistic dumbfuckery to reduce everything to them, because a) they alone do not determine ontogeny, and b) even if they did, there’s not just 2 identical sex chromosomes out in the wild to say all chromosome combos are equivalent. mutation is a thing.

the world is supremely chaotic, and we can attempt to categorize it all, but we’re only really successful at it with very simple things, like physics and chemistry. for everything else we’re more or less testing and making it up as we go. and rules of thumb are useful, but they’re not everything.

life as we live it is incredibly complex, and that scares people who then run to find mental refuge in simplistic explanations for all. religion does this, and science-as-religion is no different.

the kind of normative naturalism that jordan lobsterman preaches is extremely lazy thought. yes, we have to recognize the biological as he says—but no, the biological is not as simple as he pretends in order to advance his order vs. chaos ideology. he might have once measured crustacean serotonin but he’s certainly not an endocrinologist.

it's a form of hate speech and doesn't need a response

You are confusing sex with gender. Gender is not defined by genetic code.
Don't really see any relevance between what you are saying and the question I asked so I presume you are not talking to me.


"In countries where they had civilization and religion before monotheism all sexual characteristics are usually accepted and understood." Don't really know where you get that one from or which these countries are, I think you pulled this out of your arse.

Nope. In many countries (especially older ones that were no founded by christians), intersex genders are recognized, whether it is native americans belief that a human can have two souls (male and female souls in a male r female body, or a male soul in a female body or vice versa), and the Longstanding Hindu belief that there are sex genders between male and female, or the acceptance of early China regarding men with female souls or vie versa. There are many many examples. The Inuit do so. There are tribes and cultures in Africa that shared these views.

Be serious. Why is it hate speech for genetic women to say that womanhood isn't something you can assign yourself?

Why is it that you all-born-male-people presume to know better on the issue of what womanhood is than people who have been women all their lives?

Yeah I know, hijras, etc. It's a more sensible and accepting way of looking at people and the world. But that is not the same as "all sexual characteristics are usually accepted and understood". We had civilization and religion before monotheism in Europe and your statement is not true for here. They've never had monothesim in Japan (well not yet) and your statement isn't true for there either.



NB I'm not defending gender binaries. Nor am I advocating intolerance of non-binary/trans people.

what is “womanhood”? just aXing (about the terms of this discussion.)

well, T n B is going into the ignore bin..:)

The guy has shown an interest in wanting to learn so why not have a discussion with him? Not as if he's been a dick about it all. It's too easy to just go "urgh you just don't get it" as if that proves your point.

too facile on the "wanting to learn" thing. It seems practiced and shop worn to me. I've got a real low tolerance for bullshit, since I am neither working nor running for office, I just don't have to respect other peoples fucked up opinions. :)

Do you understand the difference between a question and an opinion or are you being wilfully closed minded? I guess if you put someone on ignore then the answer is obvious.

Read my posts that have my actual opinions: having multiple genders (or none) is more sensible and accepting the binary.
Gender binary is dumb. I'll add this: i have great admiration for people who transition, it must be immensely difficult and probably comes after long periods of alienation, depression and self-loathing. And I imagine is a very difficult decision to make and tell your friends and family, and then actually carry out and do.

However, it takes a leap of logic to say that someone who transitions to male or female is the same as a person of was born, raised, lived their who life and is biologically male/female. This is why binary is dumb. This is why multiple (infinite/none) genders is more sensible.
Why is it controversial for a cis woman to say trans women are trans women? As far as I can see that is not derogatory or dehumanizing unless you think there is something wrong or inferior with being trans.

Quoted just in case you were blocked :D

Womanhood I was using to refer to whatever it is that people like Germaine Greer or Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie regard as being their province, whether that means it is exclusive to cis women or just theirs to a greater extent than trans women, or a thing that is similar but separate to transwomanhood (don't ask me what that is).

I'm not saying I know what it is, I'm just expecting that these women do.

ok i don’t know what constitutes womanhood either or what the novelist wrote, but is it anything like this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janice...transsexualism

Re practiced and shop worn, if I had had this wretched conversation before what makes you think I'd want to relive it?

Nope, summary here:
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...mments-apology

well, briefly, it’s the same “privilege” rhetoric as the nun’s book, just refined, and if you in another comment claim to recognize the courage and difficulty of transitioning and the issues transpersons face, then you really have to ask—what fucking privilege is she talking about?

last i checked, trans life was reportedly very hard.

seems to me she doesn’t know what she’s talking about, not being trans herself, but her left-brain interpreter seems to be working overtime.

but if she just said “i don’t fucking know” she wouldn’t get paid to talk on tv.

btw here is germaine greer’s left-brain interpreter cooking up
a spectacular contradiction: https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...-restates-them

I guess the privilege she is talking about is the privilege of being born male in a society that favors males, whether you want that or take advantage of that personally or not. She is not dismissing the oppression or hardship faced by transwomen, although it seems that some people think that saying here are two categories of people with broadly different experiences she is participating in opression.

Here's a quote from Adichie:

"I see how my saying that we should not conflate the gender experiences of trans women with that of women born female could appear as if I was suggesting that one experience is more important than the other. Or that the experiences of trans women are less valid than those of women born female. I do not think so at all — I know that trans women can be vulnerable in ways that women born female are not. This, again, is a reason to not deny the differences.

Why does this even matter?

Because at issue is gender.

Gender is a problem not because of how we look or how we identify or how we feel but because of how the world treats us.

Girls are socialized in ways that are harmful to their sense of self – to reduce themselves, to cater to the egos of men, to think of their bodies as repositories of shame. As adult women, many struggle to overcome, to unlearn, much of that social conditioning.

A trans woman is a person born male and a person who, before transitioning, was treated as male by the world. Which means that they experienced the privileges that the world accords men. This does not dismiss the pain of gender confusion or the difficult complexities of how they felt living in bodies not their own.

Because the truth about societal privilege is that it isn't about how you feel. (Anti-racist white people still benefit from race privilege in the United States). It is about how the world treats you, about the subtle and not so subtle things that you internalize and absorb."

Anyway, I guess she is evil because she said something that some people thought was not nice and the whole issue is apparently beyond discussing.

there’s a lot to unpack so i’ll discuss in pieces


so trans women are “born” male? says who?

i mean, seems to me trans people are born trans or intersex already and are more or less arbitrarily assigned a gender...

...which is a fucked up way to get a start in life.

“born”: wholly stupid unscientific folk notion, and i keep banging the table about it.

Their body, the doctor, their birth certificate, the law and society.

No doubt

now let’s say that, born trans, you’re assigned a definite gender

and then you promptly fail to meet the expectations of your assigned gender

i don’t know about your experiences, but i’ve seen what happens with people at the bottom of social hierarchies, and it’s fucked up.

so, yeah, i don’t know what “born” privilege trans people face.

the privilege of getting your ass kicked on a daily basis?

their body? i dont know.

a newborn vs the power structure. good luck with those odds..

Maybe you are a bot (this makes a lot of sense) living in cosmic computer soup but I'm not prepared to discuss whether being born is an unscientific folk notion. Bang the table to your heart's content.

being born has to do with being spat out of the womb using your lungs for the first time and being exposed to outside bacteria, and having to eat with the mouth, and taking shits, etc.

birth is not the whole of ontogeny. it’s only a moment in it.

get it right

trans women may be born 100% male, 50/50 male female, or 100% asexual(in terms of actual genitals) and anything in between.

Trans men may be born 100% female, 50/50 male female, 100% asexual (genital organs) and anything in between.

Medicine is the youngest science, and quite full of BULLSHIT that still needs to be worked out.

a 100% male baby in the womb can be altered by the mother's hormones and diet and develop feminine characteristics, and vice versa.

There is NO dichotomy in this. anyone who tells you people are either born female or born male is an uneducated ignoramus, looking to spout off on his/her supposedly superior knowledge and wisdom.

TRUMP JR.: I think we're actually all pretty let -- live and let live. So is my father. But today, you know, it's sort of the "woke" goalposts. They keep moving. The example I use in the book is obviously as it relates to, you know, trans women in sports. Identify how you want. I think it's wonderful. I don't care. When you start saying, "Okay, I'm a man. I've become a woman. I'm now winning national championships, setting weightlifting world records," you know, displacing women who've worked their entire lives to get to a point in their careers, I think that's wrong. And that's the point. The goalposts never stop moving.
Dunno what that's all about, but we are guessing a transgender person beat Junior at hoops and he has never recovered.

What the heck happened to this thread since I was last here? I'm kind of glad I missed it. It's interesting to see non transgender people getting defensive and offensive about the gender spectrum. Like I've said, I don't think it's possible to understand what it feels like unless you have experienced it.


Here's the bottomline about the health of trans persons:

Trans folk are more likely to commit suicide than war vets.

Hormone therapy and transition reduces the risk significantly. Unhappy people become less unhappy.

That's it.

Fuck everything else. Save lives.

I respect that no woman wants a man dictating what feminism means to them, but anyone who makes it their stance to be disinclusive in name, deserves shame.

trans people are people. TERFs can suck a fuck, you Nazi pricks.

an example of my encounters with chasers on dating sites:


intro pick up line: "can i come over now"
WHOA RED FLAG SERIAL KILLER.
no profile, no picture
WHOA RED FLAG FUCKING MORONIC SERIAL KILLER


me: let's start with 'hello'
them: hey
me: that's a slight improvement. what gender are you?
them: male
me: cis or trans
them: no
me: you have to be one or the other. were you born a man? or are you saying you are intersex?
them: i just want to fuck
me: do you not know what cisgender means? if you want to fuck a trans woman, maybe at least read a faq or the first paragraph on wikipedia



basically from there on out it becomes clear they have been hearing this from other people and learned nothing. then they start telling me i'm not a woman or a person and i'm delusional etc


i actually tried to offer helpful advice. how if you want to fuck a trans woman, you have to be respectful, and you have to realize they do not have sex the way you do. these men's exposure to trans women is pornhub. they know nothing else. at least be aware of the huge difference between trans porn aimed at heterosexual cis men versus trans porn aimed at cis and trans lesbians. it's just like other porn aimed at women, it's about the mind and emotions. way more talking than sex. (honestly i often just use the intro story in porn to get my mind going, then i go in my bedroom and fantasize about my gf.)





...and this man wants to fuck a trans woman, any trans woman, and assumes they are basically slaves





HINT: IF MY PROFILE SAYS I'M A LESBIAN AND I DON'T RESPOND TO MALES, YOU ARE NOT A MAGIC EXCEPTION. why do cis men make lesbian profiles in the first place? i have not spent 37 years wrestling with LGBTQ issues without realizing i'm into men. i am not going to suddenly go "i've never been attracted to men, but this gross, sexist, fat, idiot 15 years my senior is somehow hot and i want him to fuck me in the ass."


really? why are men so stupid? by which i mean these kind of men, not you fine gentlemen.


it makes me want to delete every dating profile i have except for okcupid.


/RANT

don’t enable sociopaths by giving them advice

good advice :D

S/he Speaks

the fucking moron...