when i was younger i was involved in an accidental shooting.

No. Before you even get to Wal Mart you have to prove that you're not mentally ill, or a criminal and then you have to justify ownership of a lethal weapon. Then you need to prove that your gun will be stored securely and in a seperate place from your ammunition.
Then and only then should you be considered for a gun licence, and your application should be made public so that anyone that you have threatened to kill can object to it being granted.
Then, when and if your licence is granted, the weapon you are licenced for should be appropriate for it's declared use. For example, a .50 cal sniper rifle is not appropriate for rabbit hunting, and a fully automatic machine pistol is not appropriate for target shooting. Also the amount and type of ammunition that you are allowed to purchase should be part of the licence and the licence should need to be shown every time you want to buy a gun or ammo.

Yes it sounds like a long winded and time consuming process, and so it should be if it will stop lunatics going into gun shops and leaving with weapons only the military should be allowed to use, along with a sackful of 'cop killers' just because 200 or so years ago the Founding Fathers felt that it would be useful to have a group of armed citizens to defend their towns against the Brits. That role is now filled by your National Guard, which makes the original premise redundant.

amen.

If only more of the people in power, in all nations, had Florya's commonsense, the world could be a much much better place.

[quote=Florya]No. Before you even get to Wal Mart you have to prove that you're not mentally ill, or a criminal and then you have to justify ownership of a lethal weapon. Then you need to prove that your gun will be stored securely and in a seperate place from your ammunition.
Then and only then should you be considered for a gun licence, and your application should be made public so that anyone that you have threatened to kill can object to it being granted.
quote]



Yeah, but how are you goint to assest that someone has not got mental problems? Aren't a lot of people clever at hiding them? Seems all nicely put, but does it work out that way in reality? I doubt it does.

so what would you do pork? what changes would you like to see made, if any?

that is not said angrily.

I'd change the whole structure of society, abolish the state and bring down capitalism to its knees, that's if i really had it my way. For now, i'd severely reduce unnecessary negativity from many sections of our culture, and give it a more realistic (which would include positive things, not just negative) sheen. I'm all for abolishing guns, still simply doing that is not particularly gonna resolve anything, unless you go at the root of why voilence between human beings exists in the first place.

Obviously you would check their medical records. That's what happens in the UK.
Of course you can't guarantee that a person won't develop mental problems in the future, and there is no way of knowing that the application for a gun license isn't the first sign of pending mental illness. That's why the application needs to be made public, so that people that know the applicant can be made aware of his/her intentions and object if they feel that allowing them to have a gun would be inappropriate.

Good luck with that :) Very Utopian of you.

I mean, i'm totally with you on that. What i'm trying to say is that when tragedies like this happen, you normally get to know that there were flaws in the laws that were meant to prevent things like that from happening. That's all.

The problem is that in the States there are no laws that would prevent things like VA Tech happening again, apart from the obvious law against murder. The worrying thing is the seeming reluctance of the American government to do anything to stop this from happening again.

George Bush needs to do more than furrow his brow and tell us how 'horrified' he is on national TV. He needs to take on the pro gun lobby and bring in legislation that will cause less death instead of more for a change.

The USA are certainly not the worst when it comes to murders:

#1 Colombia:0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa:0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica:0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela:0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia:0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico:0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia:0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia:0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania:0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus:0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine:0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea:0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan:0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand:0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova:0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe:0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles:0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia:0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica:0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland:0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia:0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay:0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria:0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States:0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia:0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India:0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen:0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica:0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan:0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland:0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia:0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania:0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal:0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia:0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of:0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius:0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary:0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South:0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia:0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France:0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic:0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland:0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia:0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada:0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile:0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom:0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy:0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain:0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany:0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia:0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands:0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand:0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark:0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway:0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland:0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland:0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia:0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece:0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong:0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan:0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia:0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar:0.00115868 per 1,000 people

i wonder if the NRA will have a meeting there anytime soon?

porky, you must consider the different social conditions in each country of the list.

Also, there aren't enough cases of mass murders or enough victims to justify a ban on guns or more strict laws. I'm sure that they won't do anything about it.

Sure, do you see an outcry for banning guns etc in those countries, though? No, you don't see that. Chit chat.

But the slightly disturbing thing is that the USA is always held up as being the great example of a civilised nation, but you don't have to look all that much closer to see that it is anything but.

If America is truly such a civilised nation, surely it (and its citizens) should be able to find better solutions to its problems than bullets and guns.

You can buy food IN SHOPS, numpty.

But I never saw those countries' presidents going around saying they are an example of civilisation. Plus, in USA you can easily and legally buy guns, while in most cases in those countries weapons are held illegally.

After 4000 years of taking harsh criticism from the Europeans and non, the USA seem less regarded as a civilised nation, and more like a deeply misunderstood country. You rarely hear about the fierce battles that the unions have to fight in order to keep some rights for the working classes(yes, they exist in the USA too) over there. The general stereotypes that the ever pompous European press is likely to spread, is the tiresome litany of the fat McDonald's muncher and very little else that is seriously insightful. Little you hear about the dramatic level of poverty etc, it's generally painted as MTV land, inhabited by crypto-wannabes and their blonde babes (just a joke crypto, no offence). And warmongers.

Would I prefer an animal to be killed in a slaughter house so that not every hick and his uncle/brother can carry a gun? Yessssssssssssssssssssssss!

That proves that making them illegal wouldn't serve much of a purpose, then.

I did not meant to say "Americans are stupid", I just don't get why a so well developed country is not able to change, even just a bit, laws on such an important issue. I can't have a beer, but guns are ok. So, first time i'll get drunk with a couple beers, my aim will be good enough to shoot people with my legally owned gun. Come on, that's not a good thing from any point of view.

I'm not stating that making them illegal would work, but I think that giving people the chance to make their own arsenal increase the chances that, one day or another, for a reason or another, they will eventually use that arsenal.
More control and more strict laws could help. Obviously much more clever people with much more deep knowledge of the sublject are discussing these matters, but the feeling that the huge money incomes of guns selling has a huge influence on all this discussions is a bit too saddening.
Anyway, I don't want to drag this discussion much further.

[quote=nicfit]I did not meant to say "Americans are stupid", I just don't get why a so well developed country is not able to change, even just a bit, laws on such an important issue. quote]



Because, perhaps, there are more important laws that might have to be changed before that one. It is surely a country of many contradictions, but then, which country isn't made up of contradictions? Personally, i think there isn't one, and that generates abnormal things like being able to legally carry a gun in your pocket. It all comes down to finger- pointing, one way or another.

There's a similar argument to the whole issue of smoking bans. Obviously it would be in people's best interests not to smoke, but the revenue created from sales is so great that what would happen if that were to suddenly stop?

Unfortunately, commerce is such a huge factor, it can't be underestimated. It's a no-brainer to state that less guns=less killing. But less guns also=less revenue.

EDIT: And we're ALL a part of this kind of society, so there's no use having a 'them and us' attitude when it comes to capitalism.

I know, they can't drink alcohol "in public", but why don't they have to leave weapons at home too, then?

Yep, I agree, that's why I said "Anyway, I don't want to drag this discussion much further", you summed up what I meant by that.
Then again, a single step in the "right" direction, with the HUGE media coverage of cases like this, could help changing a bit the whole feeling about carrying guns. It's a bit too "idealistic" (is that a word?), I know, but could help, methinks. Now I'll just shut up and read what other people have to say.:o

is it true that in virgina that when purchasing a firearm you dont have to have a background check? it was on the news last night but i dont know if its true. anyone know?

That's just the point. If those people in the inner city/suburb environments were prevented from a owning guns unless they had a damn good reason to, there would be less gun related deaths.

I get the impression swa(y), that you and a lot of your countrymen find it acceptable for guns to be allowed to get into the hands of criminals and the mentally ill, and for them to go out and kill people for no good reason, just so long as you can occasionally go out and kill a deer.
It sounds like a high price to pay.

I hope I'm wrong, but all the time you argue against any form of gun control you strengthen that impression.

hey american PIGS, keep selling weapons at supermarkets, keep the concept of self-defense, liberalize online weapons shops, get you cocksuckers secretaries holding a rifle while sucking your balls. Far west has never been so close, FUCK!
Keep on, Condoleeza! Keep on Dana Perino! your kids will answer with fire! if it was only a paintball fight, we would be less surprised. Say now the asian boy was influenced by violent kung-fu movies and North-Corea violent attitude. Say now he was on drugs, say he was underage drunk.Why do these things happen only in america? you suck.

If anyone here still defends the concept of self-defence with weapons, well, YOU SUCK and you don't even know what is civilisation!
Just blame your liberalism for what happened! not the singular case. Any depressed loser even in this board could buy a gun. this is SCARY.
BAN me if I said bad things, I read some American-Pride here in this thread and it just made me want to PUKE.

32 students dead? add them to your soldiers, pigs.

It's not just the mentally ill who kill! If you compared the amount of murders commited for other more specific reasons to isolated cases of madness, it would transpire that the murderers who kill the most are people who we'd define as sane.

I think there's a strong contrarian tendency on this thread, with quite a few people merely playing devil's advocate. At least I hope they're playing devil's advocate.

It's called having different opinions.

So, in the simplest sense

A. what is the advantage of having guns made legal.

B. what is the advantage of banning them?

A. what is the advantage of having guns made legal. Money/taxes.

B. what is the advantage of banning them? Less people die.

Hey demon666...
see, that's closeminded. there's not only Having or banning. you see? the american cell that works with the "all or nothing" concept.
now what will happen? what will your democratics do?

A. A thriving market, money and the illusion of having some power that'll keep the ignorant happy and in the dark.

B. Some, but this keeping in mind that you are just taking away ONE tool from already violent hands.

I appreciate that taking guns out of public circulation wouldn't solve violent crime. All i'm saying is that they don't help matters. If Americans want to keep their right to own guns that's their business. All I'm saying is that given the rise in crime within the UK, I only see the addition of firearms into the mix as a potentially unwelcome one.

without guns they wouldnt break into houses/rape/steal so often... and if they did they would be less dangerous...