Wow, a thread about noise? No WAY!
 

I'm sick of it. No what you expected to hear? Well, a week ago, and for the past, oh I don't know, 2 years maybe, I never would have expected to say it. But it all sounds the same. I'm the type of person who is constantly looking for something new in music, and noise doesn't provide. I won't say there is no skill involved, because that will start flames like none other on this board, but even the biggest noise "musicians" have to admit there isn't much skill involved. It serves the purpose of clearing the mental pallet, and maybe breaking the usual brain paths you form so as to keep you open to new stuff, but on a musical level, I'm just tired of it. Make some music for god's sake, not just noise. I had this revelation while listening to Robert Ashley's Wolfman Tapes. Yes, the same album I myself uploaded to the board no longer than a week ago I believe, and with great enthusiasm I might add. While I had heard it before and thought I enjoyed it, all I could think was "What in the world is this crap?" I mean, let's look at it for what it is. It's a guy who is praised for doing nothing but making noise. Seriously, stop with the pretentiousness and take off the hipster glasses and see it for what it is. IT IS NOT MUSIC. IT IS NOISE.

huh I like noise.. I think I like melody a little more.. I'm sure someone's going to quote merzbow "if noise is undesirable sound, pop music is noise to me.." Whatever, it's all sound.. compelling sound is good!

there's more shite passed off as gold in noise than in probably any other underground style of music, but that isn't to say it's all crap, the best noise artists are few and far between but are as good as anyone making music in any other style. that's my opinion.

the good stuff:

merzbow
hijokaidan
new blockaders
whitehouse
wolf eyes
daniel menche
smegma
kevin drumm
lasse marhaug
graveyards
hototogisu
prurient

i dig sound in general, so i can get into noise, that doesn't mean i think all noise is relevant or worth owning. specifically bands like wolf eyes who release 400 albums a year. they have some good shit, but who'd fucking know?

wolf eyes i'm more interested in as a live band, i've seen them 7 or 8 times but i'm not in any kind of rush to start buying their records (although i like human animal a lot)

I'd love to see Wolf Eyes, especially after seeing live videos. So intense.

And threadstarter, that's a really ignorant viewpoint. I would expect that in like, a school discussion about music, not on the Sonic Youth board.
Of course, there's way more trash than goodness in noise, but the good stuff is fucking awesome. T+B said it best, and I'm just ripping him off... but it's what I would've said anyways.
It isn't like (good) noise doesn't evoke emotion at all.


You are fucking right, it ISN'T "music," it is NOISE. That doesn't make it any less enjoyable to listen to, nimrod. There is a lot of talent that goes into things like creating yr own instruments, deconstruction the boundaries of what can be called "music," and making cool sounds that could hardlky be used in the context of a standard format song.
Not everything needs to be hooky and warm and fuzzy to make it listenable.

there's a lot of great noise, there's also a lot of mediocre noise and a lot of awful noise.

personally, i don't really get into "this whole genre sucks" and, even in genres where bands kinda sound very alike (like grindcore and death metal), i tend to like a good chunk of people doing that sound.

anyhoo, i listen to a lot of noise, the bands i've been digging lately is lasse marhaug stuff (his solo shit, jazkamer, etc.), sutcliffe jügend, consumer electronics, metek, cornucopia, bloodyminded, hentai lacerator, pain jerk, mouthus, towering breaker, reverse mouth, new blockaders.

i love noise and i can't help it, that robert ashley upload you did is also fast becoming one of my favorite recordings ever.

yeah, i don't really think about genres, the noise genre is just as good/bad as any genre. every genre is loaded with bullshit and brilliance.

i dunno. like i said a few posts ago, as long as the sound is compelling, who cares...

It usually starts being good for me when it's obvious that the player's motivation stems from "Check out these cool sounds I can make" instead of "Check out this thing I made."

yes.

also, it didn't take much skill for the velvet underground, sonic youth, black flag, butthole surfers, many many others to make compelling music, did it?

one thing is that most people think that noise automatically means experimental and, in many cases, this is not the case; it was once, but not for a long time.

noise is like dada, it is such an extreme outer edge thing to begin with that unless some sort of structure is utilized it truly is just sounds and not "music". music is not and has never been just sounds. It is also rhythm, point and counterpoint, etc. Too many "noise" artists or bands are strutureless, maybe because all they really are is dudes making odd noises, not dudes using odd noises to make music.

it clearly isn't an ignorant viewpoint, as he states he's listened to noise for a good while.

Thank you. I'm not saying it is all crap, but I definitely won't be listening to it for a while. And K-krack, I'm not shocked at your reply since you tend to have diarrhea of the mouth most of the time. But in reply, it actually really CAN make it less enjoyable, especially when you have a million people a minute calling themselves "musicians" for no credible reason. And for your argument saying "Not everything needs to be hooky and warm and fuzzy to make it listenable," that is just EXACTLY what I would expect a huge noise fan to say. I never said anything about hooky, warm, or fuzzy, but as soon as you say what I said to a fan of noise, they assume this is the stance you've taken. No, push music to the edges! Redefine pop, punk, rock, and whatever else you want! Just please, if you insist on calling it music, than at least make it sound like music. Make noise. Make all of the noise you want. But then try something that is even harder. Make it fit into a song. I mean, anybody can make noises, but it's the great bands like SY that are able to create these noises, and then make them into, not only a listenable song, but a great song. That's what separates the true musicians from the 16 kid with 13 pedals and a microphone in his mouth.

i don't agree with that.

if songs were all there was to music then most jazz would not fit in, amazing works by ornette coleman or alice coltrane or derek bailey or kaoru abe wouldn't be deemed valuable because they don't have verses and choruses?

not to mention improvisational music.

BUT i do agree in that noise should be an enjoyable listening experience (or a punishing listening experience or a soothing listening experience), that it shouldn't be wanking for the sake of wanking just as guitar solos shouldn't be. there's plenty of people doing that, even when improvising, that take you on a journey and every note and texture counts even if it's not a standard song format.

hey, i love songs, i love cheap trick; but i also like someone like masonna who just let's it rip and these pieces become something else, an entire different musical experience.

i think what happens is that the noise bands are doing what sonic youth did which is to just "play" and get together and make sounds and noise and rock for hours on free form weirdness. This is good because it allows a band to create new musical language. However, bands now have taken to recording and putting out these sound workshops (in a sense) which was never done before. it is a natural progression from the times when bands released what were essentially demos out as the finished product of a CD or record. (sebadoh, eric's trip, pavement, etc,) it is no wonder then that bands like lightning bolt and wolf eyes are crafting more song oriented material, and I mean that very loosely, but that is the only direction it can go. Let's now see which noise acts can take the next step forward.

it is not about "songs". it is about STRUCTURE of some sort, any sort. even a couple or crescendos adds some sort of structure, however tenuous. otherwise it truly is sounds and not music. all sounds can be used to make music. but too many noise acts make just sounds. Ican deal with it but it is as tedious as an Interrpol show

I see what you mean, but Lightning Bolt aren't a noise band and never were to my ears. That music is meticulous and tight, and is obviously the fruit of many an hour spent on honing one's skills on one's instrument. They possess inhuman speed and accuracy. If it wasn't covered in sheets of ragged distortion and contact-mic-in-the-mouth vocals, it's as complex as any freak-prog band out there. That is definitely "music," by any definition, and always was.

very true. that wou;d be noiserockin and is noiserockin, like confusion is sex

yes but no.

i agree adding structure is one way to get there and it's something more people should explore that.

hmmm, actually i agree, when it comes down to it, it's because of structure, arrangements and orchestration that makes noise good or bad, even free improvisation isn't as wild or great if there's no direction going (even if dictated by inertia).

ps: never got why lightning bolt were considered noise, nor melt-banana...fuck, even wolf eyes, at least their earlier stuff, but the boring droning crap they have been doing of late, has a lot of musicality in them. they have fucking doom riffs and hardcore vocals going beneath the electronics.

prurient's albums for load are awful and boring, but most of his other stuff great.

i like sutcliffe jügend better too.

i refrained from making a list of all the noise bands i like because it would be too big.

yeah...

i think it's hard to take noise artists who release 100 things a year seriously. it's one thing to do lots of splits or ep's, i'm talking about wolf eyes, who release so many full lengths a year. why not focus their energy on creating a few masterpieces instead of a million crappy albums? i guess so they can keep collect money from their limited-to-5-copies crap.

also, i like tons of noise artists, too many to name, but of the ones named, i really dig hair police. but i'm not too sure about prurient; history of aids is cool, but everything else i've heard is pretty meh.

adam tied to stone is pretty cool too.

i agree about wolf eyes, the live shows is where its at and way too many of those awful recordings they put are indeed "awful sounding" to me they unfortunately set some sort of precedent on the whole self releasing noise music in the late 90's early 00's... actually there are a number of acts that are definitly better live than that limited cassette recording they put out, prurient would seem like one though i never seen them live... as of the last few years there have only been a handful of noise recordings that really hit me as damn good, the vampire can't - key cutter, death unit, some yellow swans, robedoor, air conditioning - dead rails (esp. the last track) i'm missing a few but i notice though i love the asthetic of lo-fi recordings it just really doesn't always do this type of music justice because of how full the sound already is and a muddy recording on top of it can just kill it off.

and yeah i can' think of much that could top Merzbow's 86-95 period... though i'd include "batzatoui w/ memorial gadgets" with that time frame... was that 85?

heh. load records!

Songs are not music. Songs are pop music, which is a type of music. Stravinsky didn't write songs, but I don't think you could argue that he didn't write music, dispite his propensity for "difficult listening". Sonic Youth do primarily mine the fields of pop music, but I don't think Lee was using any less skill when he created From Here to Eternity than when he wrote "New York City Ghosts and Flowers", and Flipped Out Bride stands up pefectly well against "Schizophrenia".

Noises can be crafted just as well as notes, and some choose to use either or both in songs. There are degrees of skill in such crafting and then there is just inspiration which can be worth considerably more. Yes, a dumb kid twiddling nobs without inspiration is just as painful as a dumb kid mastering his note for note Yngwie "chops", but what does either of those extremes have to do with listening to good music? Noise appears to be the new hardcore punk, and most hardcore actually sucked despite the fact that the best might have happened to rule. We come back to that inspiration factor. It gives the kids something to do, and some of them actually learn enough to eventually get good, while most get bored and play World of Warcraft instead.

I don't think Ashley was just fucking around. I think that "Rozart Mix" by Cage is a completely credible and listenable piece of "music". Crank Sturgeon is a genius though it has a lot more to do with performance than songwriting or even "music" in his case; still the inspiration makes it a quit pleasurable experience. Merzbow for me is not an everyday thing, but sometimes he hits the spot. But then so do the Carpenters.

As for the Wolf Eyes sub thread, the one time I saw them live, opening for Sonic Youth, they were pretty dull and uninspired really. Meanwhile Human Animal which came out later is a brilliant album. I don't doubt they also have records I wouldn't feel that way about, and that I could have seen a better show, but I'm just pointing out the "They're a live band, not a record band" argument is not exactly to be taken as gospel.

one man's feedback fart loop is another man's scraping metal shard drone trash.

A lot of it is the same thing, it sounds the same and it's a waste of time and money. Get over it. If you are being so defensive it is because you either are a noise musician with no talent or because you want to come across as cool and controversial.

Elements of noise will be interesting interspesed with rock or any kind music, it would be interesting to hear Pelican, for example, flirt with noise, but as a genre unto itself, noise is a very exclusive one.

Thurston (and Lee) treat these experiments the right way. They are no strangers to improvising, no spring chickens.

And Thurston is especially known for being incredibly gracious to young noise-makers and for seeming genuinely interested in trying to mine some sort of perceived untapped potential.
It's as if it's an attempt to encourage them in the vainglorious hope that someone will come along with the next Confusion is Sex for the 21st century.
To haha TAKE IT TO THE NEXT LEVEL ALL CRYPTO-STYLEY-like...

It's not going to happen.
It's a lost cause.
These people are daft.
Their shit is atrocious.

The best "noisy" stuff out there is made by the avant-garde free jazz groups like Zu, The Original Silence, Ground Zero & Otomo Yoshihide, Paal-Nilssen Love & Town House Orchestra, Art Ensemble of Chicago, and so on, who are masters at what they do. There's lots more to mention, of course. Musicians like Han Bennink, Marc Ribot, and Nels Cline are usually involved with something interesting. Truthfully, I've never been all that wild about The Ex or Haino.

Animal Collective is taking noise rock to new places musically. I suppose The Liars are as well to a much lesser extent.

The premier proper "noise band" powerhouses are still Wolf Eyes and Black Dice from all of what I've heard, which, in all honesty, isn't a whole hell of a lot.

I've tried listening to laptop-driven Prurient, Fennesz, and Merzbow, etc., and found it to be insufferable junk.

Actually, Fennesz is AWESOME, I've never really heard his shit lumped in with "noise", it's ambient glitch stuff.

But yeah... I think we've all come to the conclusion that lots of noise sucks, I definitely listen to noise less than any other genre.

well that list i wrote wasn't the be all and end all of my noise tastes, but it covers about 80% of it, anyway, i've heard a lot of fantastic stuff by menche and his new CD with kevin drumm is awesome. i forgot to mention dylan nyoukis too.

what i was refering to with shit being passed off as gold is that like other people were saying, you just get some idiot with 50 pedals and casio keyboard and if they make enough effort to network suddenly everybody loves them, e.g. birds of delay, a terrible, terrible, lazy and unimaginative group.

Noise more than any other genre seems to be more about who you know and how cool your setup looks. The most forward-thinking and inventive noise bands are always the ones that get overlooked, while people keep buying the same drone bullshit. The good thing about the noise scene, though, is that people seem to be a BIT more open minded than most listeners -- indeed, my music doesn't really fit the mold of noise, but it's pretty much the only broad genre I can almost fit into. I just love sound in general, whether it's noise or John Cage "classically" beating on a prepared piano or whatever. But I'm sure as hell not going to waste my money on, yes, the guy with a Casio keyboard and 50 FX pedals. And that seems to be the shit people buy the most... yep.

I've very little interest in noise at all, but I sometimes find the artists who make it very interesting. I read a very good interview with Dominick Fernow once where the interviewer basically asked him "why?", and he gave a fantastically eloquent answer that made the whole noise genre make perfect sense to me. It didn't make me want to listen to any Prurient, but it did at least give it some context.

Noise musicians tend to be way too overproductive because noise is the easiest thing to make. Of course there are the exceptions, but it's still an easy route for making music on the whole.

Thank you, Rob, for posting this, as it articulates something that I've been trying for the last ten minutes to work out how to say.

My only addition is to say that in order to make any sense, noise needs some kind of a context. Otherwise, to me anyway, it just comes across as deliberate irritant.

Exactly, noise is fucking interesting as hell to read about, but rarely is it easy to listen to.

And what Saaram said is true: It is way too easy to make, in about 5 minutes you can record some feedback, go into a computer program, pitch it and slow it down, and sell it as your latest drone masterpiece. Instant album that will probably sell. You look at almost all the noise that has gotten popular, and you will see that it's mainly artists who release shit-tons of shit on many different labels. That's the secret to playing the noise game. And it's fucking lame. Honestly, if I see a band has a million releases and have only been around for a year, it'll be a long time before I check them out. A band like Mammal or the Goslings, though, who has been at it for years and only has a few full lengths under the belt, totally gets my support.

I have little to no interest in pure noise. Noise as an instrument in rock or other forms of song writing (Dälek, for example) is wonderful. That's why I like musicians that dabble in noise as a free form sandbox to pull creative ideas out from. I'm aware that there are noteworthy noise musicians that are able to do interesting and compelling things but usually this is too abstract for my attention span. And those are my thoughts on that.

Not quite. As far as I know, only certain strings are considered drone strings, and not all instruments have them.

Drone and noise are not the same thing. Don't get me started.

Yes. Don't get him started or this thread will turn into Sarra the musical.